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Let tanks tank!


Arkhell's Avatar


Arkhell
12.21.2011 , 08:13 AM | #51
as a healer theres is nothing worse then seeing one of you group members you're responsible for see turn grey (out of range) and then the healthbar starts plummating down....

stay with group and don't see if you can go of to the left 30+m and attack that elite gaurding droid to see if you can solo it while i come running over to keep your *** alive, cause i will have to do that.

why do i have to do that you ask? well he's agrood by you, you build threat on him and 1 other member in the group also did that by default, know who that is? yes it's me cause i was healing, sure it's not a lot of agroo, but it is more then the dps and the tank if they didn't see you run off i'm screwt when your dead since then i'm the next on his list of things to bash in the face.

so please think of your healer when you run of to get yourself killed next time
my Lightsaber goes PZZZZZZZ stabbedy stab stab pzwwwb and you're dead

Ullikummi's Avatar


Ullikummi
12.21.2011 , 09:24 AM | #52
Maybe this is my teacher half talking but I've found that a little patience and explanation is incredibly effective.

In 28 levels I've seen a lot of players who just don't understand the group dynamics -- they are either new to MMOs or they think this is WOW. Simply saying don't do that or please do this (without being a jerk), has remedied the situation every time.

I believe a lot of it is due to the way tanking and healing mechanics work in this game, at least early on. Tanks are still fairly squishy and aren't built for holding aggro or taking damage from more than 1-2 mobs. Also, healers pay a heavy price for spamming heals. I don't have 80k mana, I can deplete my entire energy bar in <5 casts, and every other cast lowers my regen rate.

Kneemo's Avatar


Kneemo
12.21.2011 , 09:52 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Ullikummi View Post
Maybe this is my teacher half talking but I've found that a little patience and explanation is incredibly effective.

In 28 levels I've seen a lot of players who just don't understand the group dynamics -- they are either new to MMOs or they think this is WOW. Simply saying don't do that or please do this (without being a jerk), has remedied the situation every time.

I believe a lot of it is due to the way tanking and healing mechanics work in this game, at least early on. Tanks are still fairly squishy and aren't built for holding aggro or taking damage from more than 1-2 mobs. Also, healers pay a heavy price for spamming heals. I don't have 80k mana, I can deplete my entire energy bar in <5 casts, and every other cast lowers my regen rate.
that's why I target what I do. Like I said in my first post. Weak enemies are under estimated in large numbers. The 3 normal mobs together are doing more damage than that one strong one. So as dps I feel I should kill off the weak guys instead of the tank target to lessen the numbers against us. Sometimes that "target the tank target at all times!!!!" Crap doesn't work. Especially in this game. I think we have established in this thread that despite the similarities to wow, combat mechanics are not like wow. Not every fight is tank and spank.

Pawlaar's Avatar


Pawlaar
12.21.2011 , 11:57 AM | #54
I've been tanking as a juggernaut (now lvl 40) and the way I deal with this problem is with one simple message at the start of the FP.

"Hey guys, just a cpl things. I'm not going to worry about normal mobs too much. Always kill normal>>>strong>>>elite. If there are multiple elites, Ill put up a cross hair on the target that should die first"

Then it's also good to let them pick a mark for when there is need for CC. This eliminate most random attacking and has led to very successful runs.

Stadulator's Avatar


Stadulator
12.21.2011 , 12:07 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by LA_Hague View Post
I think a few more user-friendly UI additions by Bioware may help out. Most people are probably too used to DBM, Omen, etc. to help them choose targets.

I think NOT

There's absolutely NO need for an add on to take the place of common sense.

If they can't figure out what mob is "iced", which mob the tank is on, and which mob needs to be distracted because it's on th healer, the only solution is for them to die a lot or to go back to their Xbox and let the real MMO players run the show.

Case in point: Sniper keeps getting aggro, attacking 2 or 3 mobs an encounter then tryin to kite them around. He died a lot. Complained abt my healing a lot. And in the end, wound up taking a chill pill and finally assisting the tank when the rest of the group told him to stop being such a n00b.

And holy crap if he didn't die any more... /shrug

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
12.21.2011 , 12:08 PM | #56
if there are two dpsers, let them focus on the wimps while you tank fatties while getting heals. then, when the wimps are all dead they can focus on your fatty.

Karinah's Avatar


Karinah
12.21.2011 , 12:17 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Kesitah View Post
Are you 100% sure they were squishies and not actually cloth-covered Shadow tanks who noticed the other tank was more - aggressive - about being the tank in this group, and tried to find some role they could fulfill in this group? ^^
Actually, I meant trigger happy mages in other games I've played. People who know what they're doing are very visibly and obviously playing differently than people who are just trying to cover their own mistakes.

OSUNightfall's Avatar


OSUNightfall
12.21.2011 , 01:59 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Mortal_Sword View Post
Ummm. No.

Rolling a tank doesn't give you the right to be your own little Attila the Hun. Good groups work together, converse and strategize, and try to get the most out of everyone's abilities. Same goes for healers, CC, DPS, ANYONE. No one is better than someone else or more important. I've seen healers who refuse to heal DPS, and then wipe over and over again because they don't realize that you can't win some fights without an appropriate amount of DPS. Everyone should be doing their job, and if there is a problem handle it like adults.

As one fella above mentioned, I play Jedi Shadow (mirror to Sith Assassin) and I also DPS the normal mobs in pack pulls. I do this for many reasons, the first being that it is easy to do. I can usually down the normals quickly and assist on the elite(s) once finished. I take almost no damage doing this, and I even have tanking cooldowns I can pop if needed. I sometimes even switch to Combat and put Guard on the healer to be extra cautious on some fights (I'm looking at you Council fight in Mandalorian Raiders).

Many players have this old school mentality that the Tank and Healer are the center of the world, and that everyone else is just there as chaffe. This isn't true anymore, and it shouldn't be true in good game design. Every member of the group should have a role, and there should be some encounters where that role is flexible or dynamic.

This mentality that the Tank is "in charge" needs to go. Get over yourself. I'm not here to follow your target of target and mash the same rotation until everything dies in the order you determine (erroneously or not).

Don't make me remind you how often it is the Neanderthal tank types who charge into every pull without letting the CC classes utilizes their abilties (Sap much? Oh you already aggro'ed, nvm).

You want to complain or get on a soapbox about good playstyle? Teach people to fill their role and to do it with some sense of logic. Until you are maximizing every advantage and minimizing every risk on EACH and EVERY pull, you have no room to talk.

SWTOR is a revolutionary game in this aspect. The lines have been blurred, each class has multiple roles and isn't pigeon holed to just one playstyle. Has it ever occurred to anyone that perhaps the old ways aren't applicable here? That perhaps these encounters are designed to be different?
As usual someone misunderstands and thinks it's about a power-trip. Tanks control the flow of combat through necessity. If the tank isn't ready and you pull, the group dies. If the healer isn't ready and you pull, the group dies. If the dps aren't ready and you pull, everything's fine. Like it or not it all rests on the shoulders of the healer and tank to move the group through the dungeon at a sustainable pace and keep everyone alive. That doesn't mean dps aren't important; of course dps is important. But because of their role they're ill-suited to set the flow of combat, and doing an instance by committee is just a recipe for failure. Leave your ego at the door, realize it's a team effort, and maybe this wouldn't bother you.
"If command wanted your opinion on ethics they'd promote you to general." - Strenif

Trevellian's Avatar


Trevellian
12.21.2011 , 02:15 PM | #59
We follow the same sort of plan I used in EQ2.

Tank
Healer
Main assist
DPS

Tank is there to get initial aggro and work on keeping the big guy(s) focused on him. Healer has 1st priority on keeping the tank up, with group healing when possible after that. Main assist and DPS work together - with main assist actually being the one that will select which target will be the next to be killed.

We used that as the tank usually had his hands full switching targets and keeping aggro, so having a DPSer (who was usually ranged and could see more of the battle) study the situation and see what was causing the most problems or what would drop quickly was useful.

Main assist and DPS also use whatever CC they have if necessary.

If the healer could also spare time/resource for DPS he would follow main assists target.

Works for us.