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A critique of Vigilance 2.0 for PvE raiding

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
A critique of Vigilance 2.0 for PvE raiding

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
03.03.2013 , 08:32 PM | #1
Judging by the parses weve seen today it appears that Vigilance and Watchman will be ruffly equivalent in DPS output in 2.0.

A tool tip error - The Overhead Strike tool tip says 4236 - 4859 damage. This is incorrect it does crit for 5296 but non crit damage is in the 2700 - 3700 range.

I have been on the PTS looking at how the class operates now and this thread is an initial attempt to think about rotations for maximum DPS. I do not have the reduced range for saber throw armour set ability just the 8% increase to Master Strike.

here is the build thingy http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-.../guardian/225/

First i ran a test on slash and force sweep and found that they both hit for ruffly the same damage and crit about the same amount (with the build above). So as a filler ability the big differences are that sweep generates 1 focus while slash costs 2 & sweep is kenitc while slash is melee. http://www.torparse.com/a/152599

Next i tested Plasma Brand, Overhead Strike, Blade Storm & dispatch. I descovered that compaired to each other if you add the bleeds to the main damage and use them as soon as they refresh then comparitivly:

Plasma Brand generates 26.5% of total damage
Overhead Strike generates 25% of total damage
Blade Storm generates 21.5% of total damage
Dispatch 10%

with the remander being focus generators.
http://www.torparse.com/a/152623

When i added in Master Strike it increased my dps from 1850 to 2150. (the PTS is in the USA while i am in New Zealand so this is with 300 lag).

Unfortunitly i found that spamming bleed abilities and master strike + dispatch as soon as they came off cool down was ruffly 100 dps better than a rotation that was based around using Plasma Brand every 12 seconds.

This seems a pitty

I see that wade county is generateing 2300+ using a run out and leap in rotation that avoids strike - as per current best practice (i cant try this at 300 lag unfortunitly).

The principals i have adopted are similar to current vigi and watchman practice. keep the bleeds as the primary focus and fit Masterstrike & dispatch in while your bleeds are up.

Opening: Throw - Leap - Sunder - Plasma Brand - Overhead Strike - Blade Storm (crits) - Master Strike - Dispatch
= 9 sec from Plasma Brand to Dispatch
So Sweep - Sunder get you to 12 second and back to plasma Brand - but also gives you down time of 4 seconds on overhead Slash and Blade Storm.

to improve this use Overhead strike ahead of Plasma brand when it is ready (they do ruffly the same total output) and use Blade storm every time you have 2 stacks of force rush.

Master Strike seems to proc every second Plasma Brand on avarage.
Dispatch Procs reliably at 20 seconds

Every other rotation when Master Strike & dispatch do not proc
Sunder - Plasma Brand - Overhead Strike - Blade Storm - Sweep - Saber throw - Leap - slash - Sunder etc
(basically you have 4 abilities or 6 seconds to fill back to sunder).

its great the the DPS is comparible to the other main melee class well done bioware. it is a pitty that it now feels much more like a watchman to play - i dont like the priority based (spam you best abilities) approach much. and loved how it plays currnently pre 2.0.

Pleas feel free to add your improved approaches to rotation and skil use - gearing - Specing here. if you like add parses too.

Lyrik
Lyrik - Guardian
Mogal - Jugg
Lyr - Sentinal

TwistedTony's Avatar


TwistedTony
03.03.2013 , 08:45 PM | #2
i personally love it. in terms of it feeling like watchmen? ehhh i respectfully disagree for one reason. I'm very familiar with both classes and with watchmen/annihilation i feel like an agressive, beserking slasher. with vengeance (mirror) i feel like a heavy hitting hulk. I can see what you mean when you say it plays like watchmen tho with the new sundering assault/strike and personally im thankful for that because that makes me feel the this class spec was actually meant to dps, instead of spamming it every time it comes off its 3 second cool down

bottom line i love it. in basic arkanian gear bis, no augments and dg gear, im always within 50-100 dps or equal to my marauder; both carnage and annihilation spec.

and 50-100 dps gap is perfect. still not as good as a pure dps melee class, but competitive. WELL DONE bioware, and thank you for listening
The Bastion - Descension
Rexas - Juggernaut, Predatus - Marauder, Malitus - Assassin
Vigilax - Guardian

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
03.03.2013 , 10:30 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by TwistedTony View Post
i personally love it. in terms of it feeling like watchmen? ehhh i respectfully disagree for one reason. I'm very familiar with both classes and with watchmen/annihilation i feel like an agressive, beserking slasher. with vengeance (mirror) i feel like a heavy hitting hulk. I can see what you mean when you say it plays like watchmen tho with the new sundering assault/strike and personally im thankful for that because that makes me feel the this class spec was actually meant to dps, instead of spamming it every time it comes off its 3 second cool down
yea i agree pritty much - its not sunder so much as the 12 second change to plasma brand that im commenting on... we went from 3 abilities with the same cool down for a super smoth rotation - to 12 sec + 2x 9 sec. Making everything constantly unstable. its not a major - watchman is easier to play than vigi currently - i just prefer the vigi style at the mo - and would rather not have the best approach be a spam abilities as they come off cool down approach - any meat head can do that.
Lyrik - Guardian
Mogal - Jugg
Lyr - Sentinal

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
03.03.2013 , 10:45 PM | #4
I've done some other parses since, tweaking things here and there with each one.

My general rule of thumb is to always prioritize Plasma Brand over Overhead Slash, and to actually delay using them by 1 GCD in order to maximize my chances at Zen Strike procs. If I have to delay by more than 1 GCD, I'll go ahead and use Plasma Brand or Overhead Slash, even if I can't proc Zen Strike.

I also try to save Blade Storm only with 2 stacks of Force Rush, but will sometimes use it with only 1 as its better to not crit a Blade Storm than be forced to use Slash or Strike as filler.

The reason I delay for Zen Strike procs is because of how important they are for maintaining DPS now, with Sunder on a longer cooldown and Zen Strike giving you 3 Focus back instead of 2, you get more out of it when you do proc but you can run dryer on Focus if you don't and Sunder isn't ready yet.

The ideal situation when proccing Zen Strike is to have Sweep, Sunder, Blade Storm and a proc'd Dispatch from Keening all ready to go, as this lets you do something like Plasma Brand (zen Strike) -> Master Strike -> Dispatch -> Blade Storm -> Sunder -> Overhead Slash (you could use Sweep in place of Sunder if you're ok on Focus, or in place of Dispatch if you didn't proc Keening), as this would allow you to have a chance to proc Zen Strike again on that Overhead Slash, as well as your next Plasma Brand. Using Overhead Slash 1 GCD sooner would waste a chance at a Zen Strike proc, and those procs are the absolute key to our DPS now, even moreso than before.

Now, if you didn't have enough filler available, and lets say you proc'd another Zen Strike on Overhead Slash, I would consider immediately using Plasma Brand when its off cooldown since it is our best DPS ability, and also since Overhead Slash is only on a 9 second cooldown, meaning less downtime before your next chance to proc Zen Strike.

I guess I'd put it like this... get your proc on Plasma Brand, try to push your filler out so Overhead can also proc. Get your proc on Overhead, unless you have solid filler like both Dispatch and Blade Storm available, go ahead and use your next Plasma Brand early.

EDIT: as to the best approach being "spam abilities as they come off cd", that is definitely not what I do. I am constantly holding things back a GCD or two, whether it be Sunder to make sure I don't waste Focus (using it at more than 5 Focus is a waste, and even at 5 can waste Focus if your in combat Focus generators proc at the same time), or OS/PB to make sure I have as many opportunities to proc a Zen Strike as possible, or even Keening proccing your Dispatch, as with 2 stacks of Force Rush I prefer to get my next Blade Storm out before I use my Keening proc to generate a free stack of Force Rush (the proc lasts at least 10 seconds).

Here's a parse from a single target boss fight in Mando Raiders, the bonus boss... as its mostly a tank and spank, with occasional movement, its a fairly easy fight for melee DPS to check their numbers on. I actually wound up using Plasma Brand more than Overhead Slash, some of that was due to downtime from movement issues (the boss occasionally drops aggro and attacks a random person), but the fact my DPS stayed well over 2400 proves Plasma Brand is the key for us, much moreso than Overhead Slash.

http://www.torparse.com/a/153149/29/0/Damage+Dealt

This is probably my best dummy parse so far.

http://www.torparse.com/a/153155/1/0/Damage+Dealt

TwistedTony's Avatar


TwistedTony
03.04.2013 , 12:41 AM | #5
yeah no changes in terms of priority list goes with 2.0. MS>PB>BS (only if 2 stacks) >OS

if bs doesn't have 2 stacks, i get another stack with OS or dispatch if its up than do scream, cuz currently with our class at least, crit is useless and i have none
The Bastion - Descension
Rexas - Juggernaut, Predatus - Marauder, Malitus - Assassin
Vigilax - Guardian

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
03.04.2013 , 01:44 AM | #6
Nice parses there Wade.

My first impulse was to orient all the abilities around using Sunder then Plasma Brand every 12 seconds. This works well as the 9 second gap remaining fits OS BS MS and Dispatch + one or OS BS + 4 every other time.

I will keep working this up it looks like you are doing something similar. its a little hard to build a rotation with 3100 lag but good to chat about it here and get a sence of the play.

Cheers
Lyrik - Guardian
Mogal - Jugg
Lyr - Sentinal

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
03.04.2013 , 08:37 AM | #7
Well, I don't know how dialed in the gear is on these toons...but there are watchman parses over 2700 out there right now...

Also, I find on live that the best priority dps wise puts ravage/masterstrike as top priority...then apply bleeds then use force scream/blade storm...then your other attacks.

On the pts we need to be more mindful of our procs than ever...and I am sure we will discover the sweet spot in due time. But it seems that bleed damage slightly over takes the damage from ravage/masterstrike after 5 mins. This will make us more dependent on bleed damage...but we should not be lulled into forgetting about other attacks.
Republic Paragons/Paragons of the Empire:
http://republicparagons.guildlaunch.com
To contact in game find Hagimond or Zutharan Republic side for Imperial Side contact Gyrok or Peregrin-Noir

TwistedTony's Avatar


TwistedTony
03.04.2013 , 03:44 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
Well, I don't know how dialed in the gear is on these toons...but there are watchman parses over 2700 out there right now...

Also, I find on live that the best priority dps wise puts ravage/masterstrike as top priority...then apply bleeds then use force scream/blade storm...then your other attacks.

On the pts we need to be more mindful of our procs than ever...and I am sure we will discover the sweet spot in due time. But it seems that bleed damage slightly over takes the damage from ravage/masterstrike after 5 mins. This will make us more dependent on bleed damage...but we should not be lulled into forgetting about other attacks.
Lol omg SHOW ME these parses of 2700 that everyone says there are yet are nowhere to be seen! And what's their gear? Some nerds are in 72s, new augments and such so back up the claim with proof plz. Most I've seen is 2650 from a carnage marauder and he had new stims, and some 72s
The Bastion - Descension
Rexas - Juggernaut, Predatus - Marauder, Malitus - Assassin
Vigilax - Guardian

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
03.04.2013 , 05:51 PM | #9
If you calculate out the damage from each of our main attacks you get the following:

Overhead strike: 4916 devided by 9 = 546.2
Plasma Brand: 5310 devided bt 12 = 442.5
minimum non crit damage in each case. Plasma Brand probaby tops becuase it is more internal damage.

Based on this it is important to use OS every 9 seconds. Also OS is our biggest damage out put if we use it every 9 seconds. BUT plasma brand bleed provides a significant baseline dps that can be kept up continusly by using 1 gcd every 12 seconds. So achieveing both these aims is important.

Master Strike is our bigest attack. However changes in 2.0 do not change current priorities - all the players able to do 1900+ are able to do so by using Master Strike only when the bleeds are up, losing the bleeds in order to prioritise MS results in a net DPS loss.

Master Strike Zen can only proc every 9 seconds - this means you need to use Master Strike Proc before the ability that proced it comes off cool down again. Wade is suggesting that seperating OS and PB helps with this which kinda makes sense.

So best use of MS = wait for proc - get bleeds up - use proc (within 9 sec) - wait for proc - get bleeds up - etc
___
Trying to maximise OS is annoyingly tricky (with 300 lag anyway)
For every 12 second PB use we get to use OS 1.25 times (over 12 seconds OS can be used twice it is usefull to break the PB cooldown into 3 second (or 2 gcd) chunks .
I have been finding that to avoid OS and PB comeing off cooldown at the same time it is usefull to hit OS 3 gcds (4.5 seconds) after PB initially.
This means it comes ready again 1 gcd after PB (1.5 seconds) then again 1 gcd before PB (1.5 seconds) this ones tricky because if you use Sunder directly prior to PB you cant on this occurance. The next one is 3 GCDs (4.5 seconds) before PB then 5 GCDs or (7.5 second) then 10.5 seconds (straght after) then 13.5 (straght before) etc.

In practice i imagine such a rotation being perfected with low lag on a dummy - but its not gona happen in a boss fight.

Blade Storm has to be used comparitivly oppotunistically when we have 2 stacks, similar with Dispatch but within 10 seconds of proc.

Lyrik
Lyrik - Guardian
Mogal - Jugg
Lyr - Sentinal

TwistedTony's Avatar


TwistedTony
03.04.2013 , 05:58 PM | #10
heres some parses i did today on my annihilation marauder and vengeance jug on pts

marauder http://www.torparse.com/a/154025/3/0/Damage+Dealt

jug
http://www.torparse.com/a/154031

gap is less than 100 in every attempt i do

when i stopped the fight tho in mox, it was 2330 for the marauder and 2328 for the jug if you take out the last few seconds of dead fight
The Bastion - Descension
Rexas - Juggernaut, Predatus - Marauder, Malitus - Assassin
Vigilax - Guardian