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Revan, Surik, Malak(redeemed) vs The Emperor, The Emperor's Wrath, Scourge.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Revan, Surik, Malak(redeemed) vs The Emperor, The Emperor's Wrath, Scourge.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 10:19 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by _biddan_ View Post
well constructed arguments are nothing next to the power of the force.
I applaud any reference to the snazziest Sith Lord out there, Darth Vader. That being said... no.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

MyDarkSunshine's Avatar


MyDarkSunshine
02.28.2013 , 10:22 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Well done, but just to quickly intervene here, Malak is NOT a pushover and the likelihood that Scourge could take Malak one on one is rather low, Malak is considered one of the best duellists of his age and was considered very proficient in the Force, he took on Revan in what was arguably his prime, through a very prolonged and tough duel.
Then the battle swings even more in the heroes favour. I'll confess, my knowledge of Malak is somewhat limited (aside from the KotOR games - in which he was a pushover), so underestimating him was a tad quick of the mark. If he can beat Scourge he can help The Exile against The Wrath, ensuring victory on her part.
"Who I am is not important- my message is." Revan

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.28.2013 , 10:26 AM | #13
Remember that and let's assume here that Revan goes straight for Vitiate, Revan just cannot take the Emperor alone, the longer it takes for the Exile and Alek to take down their opponents, if they can that is, remember the Wrath is one tough cookie, the more likely Revan is dead by the time they get there.

Then again, who says the Exile or Alek immediately chooses to go and help the other, what if they decide to move on and help Revan?
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 10:26 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by MyDarkSunshine View Post
Then the battle swings even more in the heroes favour. I'll confess, my knowledge of Malak is somewhat limited (aside from the KotOR games - in which he was a pushover), so underestimating him was a tad quick of the mark. If he can beat Scourge he can help The Exile against The Wrath, ensuring victory on her part.
Why make it 3 on 3 to start with? The Jedi have the initiative here, they're picking the time and place of the engagement. After their arrival on Dromund Kaas, Scourge should be murdered so it looks like the other Sith Lords are just angling for his position. Before anyone really sorts things out, the Jedi move against the Emperor.

It seems safe to assume that Vitiate will keep his Wrath nearby, so they'll have to be taken together.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.28.2013 , 10:29 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Why make it 3 on 3 to start with? The Jedi have the initiative here, they're picking the time and place of the engagement. After their arrival on Dromund Kaas, Scourge should be murdered so it looks like the other Sith Lords are just angling for his position. Before anyone really sorts things out, the Jedi move against the Emperor.

It seems safe to assume that Vitiate will keep his Wrath nearby, so they'll have to be taken together.
I purposefully made the angle when I was thinking about this that the Emperor is probably going to want to keep the Wrath and Scourge by his side pretty much all the time, he's paranoid as hell after the whole Jedi Knight clash, Scourge is with the Emperor and his Wrath for this battle.

(Basically, it would be totally unfair to the Sith debate to have one of them knocked off before it even starts.)
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 10:36 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I purposefully made the angle when I was thinking about this that the Emperor is probably going to want to keep the Wrath and Scourge by his side pretty much all the time, he's paranoid as hell after the whole Jedi Knight clash, Scourge is with the Emperor and his Wrath for this battle.

(Basically, it would be totally unfair to the Sith debate to have one of them knocked off before it even starts.)
I'm not saying it's fair. You don't fight fair unless you have to, and then you just run away and come back later.

Revan is a master strategist, he's going to want to stack the deck as much as possible. Scourge and the Wrath can't both hang around the Emperor forever, and Jedi are in no hurry. Everyone thinks they're dead, so they just bide their time until they can pick off Scourge. After all, eventually Vitiate will send him to get a latte or something (that's pretty much all he's good for, right?) and then -- WHAMMO! Malak hits him with stasis, Exile messes with his force connection, and Revan carves him up like a Christmas ham.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.28.2013 , 10:39 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
I'm not saying it's fair. You don't fight fair unless you have to, and then you just run away and come back later.

Revan is a master strategist, he's going to want to stack the deck as much as possible. Scourge and the Wrath can't both hang around the Emperor forever, and Jedi are in no hurry. Everyone thinks they're dead, so they just bide their time until they can pick off Scourge. After all, eventually Vitiate will send him to get a latte or something (that's pretty much all he's good for, right?) and then -- WHAMMO! Malak hits him with stasis, Exile messes with his force connection, and Revan carves him up like a Christmas ham.
I like your way of thinking, but in all truthfulness I only threw in a bit of story so it made sense, this isn't like a Kaggath or anything, this is 3 vs 3 in the Emperor's Throne Room, that's it.
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 10:46 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I like your way of thinking, but in all truthfulness I only threw in a bit of story so it made sense, this isn't like a Kaggath or anything, this is 3 vs 3 in the Emperor's Throne Room, that's it.
Very well, then we'll treat it as a 3 vs. 3, and not let it become (1 vs. 1) x3 if you understand me.

A basic situation you confront soldiers with in training is a mixed bayonet/hand to hand drill. You start with 1 vs 1, which is simply, you outflank and attempt to kill the other guy.

1 vs. 2 is more complicated, you have to keep one guy between yourself and the other, and kill them individually.

2 vs 2 is just the same as 1 vs 1, but the winner gets to help his buddy kill the last guy.

3 vs 3 is a whole other game, however. In this situation, the best maneuver is to have 2 combatants move against a single adversary while 1 guy gets into a 1 vs 1 with the furthest enemy to either flank. The trick is to always keep one of the enemy's from having a clear shot to get into the fray with you until your two guys have killed one of theirs, and then it's 2 vs 1 and 1 vs 1, which will rapidly boil downt o 3 vs 1.

So it becomes a battle of maneuver, not necessarily raw power and skill. And Revan will know this, and prepare his allies to fight accordingly.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

MyDarkSunshine's Avatar


MyDarkSunshine
02.28.2013 , 10:47 AM | #19
Stuck to the three vs three versus model for fairness, but Vent I like your idea and if allowed it'd certainly make things easier for the heroes (as well as make sense from a story perspective).

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Remember that and let's assume here that Revan goes straight for Vitiate, Revan just cannot take the Emperor alone, the longer it takes for the Exile and Alek to take down their opponents, if they can that is, remember the Wrath is one tough cookie, the more likely Revan is dead by the time they get there.
You're right, Revan would eventually fall to The Emperor. The question is how long he could last. Given he's already encountered The Emperor in a one on one fight before, lasting long enough for his allies to defeat the guards and seal the doors, it is reasonable to assume he can manage to hold for at least a short duration again. He's also far more likely to play defensive, or rather offensive (as the best defense), as it is the best way to survive against The Emperor, given he knows he cannot win given his previous defeat and that he need only last until his allies arrive to gain the advantage. On the other hand The Emperor knows now not to underestimate Revan, and will likely attempt to barrage him with powerful blasts of lightning like last time in the hopes of overwhelming Revan's defenses.

To win this fight (as in, survive until help arrives) Revan needs to close the distance and engage The Emperor at point blank range with a lightsaber, a method of combat The Emperor is far less skilled in. If Revan can get, and stay, in The Emperor's face he will survive. However if he tries like last time to meet The Emperor on the latter's own terms, absorbing and redirecting Force powers, he will fall.

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Then again, who says the Exile or Alek immediately chooses to go and help the other, what if they decide to move on and help Revan?
Unfortunately you might be right here. It depends whether or not, in the heat of the moment, they respond to logic or emotion. Logically they should help each other, quickly dispatching the weaker foe before moving onto challenge the more powerful enemy; both are skilled tacticians and would probably be capable of ascertaining this fact.

However The Exile has previously shown, where Revan is concerned, a willingness to avoid the chance of victory to save a friend. It is entirely plausible, likely even, she would move straight to assist in the battle against The Emperor as she would also know it is a battle Revan cannot win alone. Whilst, if Malak is capable of defeating Scourge, this will not completely undermine their chances of winning it will bring The Emperor's attention to The Exile, making it more difficult for her to undermine his power and (when needed) erect a wall of light.

On the other hand if Malak wins first, and seeks to assist Revan instead of The Exile, this removes certainty from the latter's victory. The Wrath, as stated, is one tough cookie: whilst The Exile would likely win it will take time, time which The Emperor could use to defeat both Revan and Malak.
"Who I am is not important- my message is." Revan

MyDarkSunshine's Avatar


MyDarkSunshine
02.28.2013 , 10:50 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
3 vs 3 is a whole other game, however. In this situation, the best maneuver is to have 2 combatants move against a single adversary while 1 guy gets into a 1 vs 1 with the furthest enemy to either flank. The trick is to always keep one of the enemy's from having a clear shot to get into the fray with you until your two guys have killed one of theirs, and then it's 2 vs 1 and 1 vs 1, which will rapidly boil downt o 3 vs 1.

So it becomes a battle of maneuver, not necessarily raw power and skill. And Revan will know this, and prepare his allies to fight accordingly.
I'm not quite sure three Jedi/Sith with lightsabers would form up the same as infantry men with bayonets, however you raise a good point: this fight need not be set as three individual one vs ones, but will likely become more fluid.
"Who I am is not important- my message is." Revan