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[Suggestion] No-one likes ninja looting


cidbahamut's Avatar


cidbahamut
03.01.2013 , 10:24 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Icestar View Post
Ofcourse I have thought this through.
Ok, so what you're saying is that you just don't care about the additional problems such a change would create and that you'd be ok with said changes even though they do nothing to actually address the problem?

If you're looking for a mechanics change that might actually help address the problem, try this: Make friends lists and black lists tied to accounts instead of individual characters.
Once word gets around that Bob's a jerk and ninjaloots all the time, he starts getting added to black lists and becomes unable to queue for flashpoints because no one will party with him. Bob hops to another character but nothing's changed because he's still on everyone's black list.
Additionally this would provide the benefit of streamlining the process of keeping track of when your friends are on. No longer would you need to keep track of the half dozen characters your friend has, each with a comment denoting who the characters belongs to. Now everything's tied together and simplified for your convenience.

The best way to prevent ninjalooting is to not party with people who ninjaloot. The tools to prevent this are currently on a per-character basis, which makes it much harder for the community at large to discourage the behavior. Admittedly it's not terribly effective to start with, but forcing a chronic looter to pick up a whole new account to continue his antics is going to discourage a few folks from engaging in the deplorable behavior.

Ultimately there really isn't a fix to be had for this problem, either from altering mechanics or from community brow-beating. Being an opportunistic jerk is human nature and it's always going to be with us. Unless we can figure out how to alter that fundamental reality then this issue will always resurface.

So rather than asking "how do we keep people from looting stuff?" we should instead be asking "what can we do to make it so people don't feel particularly inclined to ninjaloot in the first place?".

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
03.01.2013 , 11:15 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
Ok, so what you're saying is that you just don't care about the additional problems such a change would create and that you'd be ok with said changes even though they do nothing to actually address the problem?
I do care, I simply have not found a valid opinion to change my mind yet. To chase after a single mod in a item is simply not good enough to justify a needroll. When it comes to companions I will never, ever consider a needroll. The items that drop in a instance should go to those that spends time there as characters, not a companion that is not even there to help.

Regarding more "problems" that might occur with my suggestion I am listening. I simply have not read something yet that changes my mind. Feel free to enlighten me with more information.

Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
Also, how are you going to go about determining if someone can "actually benefit from it"?
Regarding the term "benefit from" I simply mean a item that has the right armor type and the right stat for the character. A player that takes a item with that type can never be called a ninja, a person a with bad judgement perhaps but never a ninja.

Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
If you're looking for a mechanics change that might actually help address the problem, try this: Make friends lists and black lists tied to accounts instead of individual characters.
I have some characters that I have ignored on all of my 16 characters but it takes ages to do that so unless they create a legacy ignore I am bound to meet those players again. It is understandable that you do not know me but to make a long story short I have played since day one and followed this game since 2008 so I understand what you mean with "make friends lists" and so on. The only problem with this is that so many friends has stopped playing and guilds tend to break down by one reason or the other. My option if I want to play at my different characterlevels unless I want to wait until my friends are ready is simply to use the groupfinder.


Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
Once word gets around that Bob's a jerk and ninjaloots all the time, he starts getting added to black lists and becomes unable to queue for flashpoints because no one will party with him. Bob hops to another character but nothing's changed because he's still on everyone's black list.
Those kind of blacklists only exists on inofficial forums or guildforums. I never, ever put a person on ignore only because someone screams about it in general chat. Those that I ignore, they deserve it by my own choice.
Those blacklists you speak of, even if they exists they does not serve a purpose unless you actually know the one writing the name on the list. Players tend to make up the wierdest reasons for giving another player a bad reputation.

Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
The best way to prevent ninjalooting is to not party with people who ninjaloot. The tools to prevent this are currently on a per-character basis, which makes it much harder for the community at large to discourage the behavior. Admittedly it's not terribly effective to start with, but forcing a chronic looter to pick up a whole new account to continue his antics is going to discourage a few folks from engaging in the deplorable behavior.
Then please write how to make groupfinder ninjaproof. There is no way to be sure who you will be partying with and to say "only group with friends", I work alot and most of the time and when I play I want to be able to do that instantly. Groupfinder is my best choice here, since I have characters at the moment from level 12 to 50. You have to be in a very large guild to be able to create groups fast at that levelrange.

Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
Ultimately there really isn't a fix to be had for this problem, either from altering mechanics or from community brow-beating. Being an opportunistic jerk is human nature and it's always going to be with us. Unless we can figure out how to alter that fundamental reality then this issue will always resurface.

So rather than asking "how do we keep people from looting stuff?" we should instead be asking "what can we do to make it so people don't feel particularly inclined to ninjaloot in the first place?"
What you speak of is understanding human nature, it is a much harder nut to crack then simply restricting those that can not use the item to need so the ones that can enjoy the item gets it. Simply enough, it is a much better solution on a big problem. There is no simple solution but other MMOs has done this to great success and I think, after playing this game since launch that it is the best next step to evolve lootrules to common sense.

cidbahamut's Avatar


cidbahamut
03.01.2013 , 11:40 AM | #33
Unless the tooltip is lying to me, you don't get queued up with people on your ignore list.

All I'm hearing out of you is "I want to implement changes that create more problems but don't actually solve any of the issues I'm complaining about."

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
03.01.2013 , 12:00 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
Unless the tooltip is lying to me, you don't get queued up with people on your ignore list.

All I'm hearing out of you is "I want to implement changes that create more problems but don't actually solve any of the issues I'm complaining about."
If you read my post I have already answered regarding this :
Quote: Originally Posted by Icestar View Post
I have some characters that I have ignored on all of my 16 characters but it takes ages to do that so unless they create a legacy ignore I am bound to meet those players again.


Meaning that sure, I will not team up with that ignored character on the SPECIFIC character that I have ignored with. but my rest of 15 characters will unless I log them on and update them every time.

So no it does not solve anything for those with more then 1 character, you have to update every single one.

This is a side track though, back to the original topic of ninjalooting, Have you come up with a constructive reason that might convince me to not try to change the lootrules here on the forum?

cidbahamut's Avatar


cidbahamut
03.01.2013 , 12:10 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Icestar View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
Unless the tooltip is lying to me, you don't get queued up with people on your ignore list.
If you read my post I have already answered regarding this :
Quote: Originally Posted by Icestar View Post
I have some characters that I have ignored on all of my 16 characters but it takes ages to do that so unless they create a legacy ignore I am bound to meet those players again


Meaning that sure, I will not team up with that ignored character on the SPECIFIC character that I have ignored with. but my rest of 15 characters will unless I log them on and update them every time.

So no it does not solve anything for those with more then 1 character, you have to update every single one.
You do realize that I suggested this exact fix, right?
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
If you're looking for a mechanics change that might actually help address the problem, try this: Make friends lists and black lists tied to accounts instead of individual characters.

Quote: Originally Posted by Icestar View Post
This is a side track though, back to the original topic of ninjalooting, Have you come up with a constructive reason that might convince me to not try to change the lootrules here on the forum?
Because it doesn't solve the issue of ninja-looting but creates more problems instead? How is that not a valid reason?
Are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, or do you actually think that's not a valid reason?

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
03.01.2013 , 12:35 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
You do realize that I suggested this exact fix, right?
It has been suggested by me and many others since legacy was introduced. I know you wrote about it in this thread but the suggestion has been known to Bioware for ages



Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
Because it doesn't solve the issue of ninja-looting but creates more problems instead? How is that not a valid reason?
Are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, or do you actually think that's not a valid reason?
No, it is not a constructive valid reason in my eyes. To simply say that something is a problem is not constructive, to define WHAT is the problem will be constructive.

So simply, once again what are the new problems you refer to that will occur with a common sense lootsystem?

Not being able to gear up your companions before other players that actually spend time with their characters?

Please do tell, a problem is never a problem until it is defined

cidbahamut's Avatar


cidbahamut
03.01.2013 , 12:43 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Icestar View Post
So simply, once again what are the new problems you refer to that will occur with a common sense lootsystem?
I already laid out a number of problems that will arise. You are simply refusing to acknowledge that they are problems for the sake of convincing yourself that you're right and I'm wrong.

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
03.01.2013 , 01:02 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
I already laid out a number of problems that will arise. You are simply refusing to acknowledge that they are problems for the sake of convincing yourself that you're right and I'm wrong.
I have not said you are wrong, I simply seek constructive reasons what you base your problem theory on.

What is it that makes you say "a number of problems will arise". What are the problems that you speak of?

You have mentioned that players can not gear up their companions

Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
So you're proposing creating a problem wherein people cannot collect gear for their companions.
Is that the "number of problems" you refer to?

cidbahamut's Avatar


cidbahamut
03.01.2013 , 01:12 PM | #39
I'm not going to get drawn into a game of semantics.

If you've actually given the situation any thought you know darn well what problems it causes and why it doesn't resolve the issues that are already present.

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
03.01.2013 , 01:16 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
I'm not going to get drawn into a game of semantics.

If you've actually given the situation any thought you know darn well what problems it causes and why it doesn't resolve the issues that are already present.
So to put it simple, you do not have a constructive reason to back your theory up.

It is fine by me. Now it is time for a few beers, have a nice evening mate