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Assasin tank in 2.0


wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.28.2013 , 05:54 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
For the record, as of today's build on PTS, Assassin just got *stupid* good.

Force Management is basically trivial. With a decent rate of shielding, I'm literally not using Saber Strike because I can't spend enough Force (Force Lightning is obscenely Force-positive whilst tanking).

On top of that, the extra charges in Dark Ward mean that tanking trash isn't a painful and dicey proposition.

2/2 in Conspirator's Cloak is almost a necessity now, because now there's significant opportunity to use Thrash, and Maul becomes very Force-efficient damage/threat. With the damage nerf to Shock, it also makes for a good stand-in to build even more threat than before.

I'm having a ton of fun with this PTS build, but I do have a very real concern that the devs went a hair too far and Assassin is now significantly overtuned. That's not a problem in and of itself, but I'd hope it's addressed via buffs to Juggernaut and Powertech tanks rather than negative rebalancing to Assassin.

They *finally* made it viable to do more than just Shock, Wither, Force Lightning, and Saber Strike (with the rare Thrash to avoid wasting Force), and I am digging it. With the sheer volume of Force that is available to spend now, Assassin is an obscene threat machine.

Here is a Hammer Station from tonight. It was late, I was a couple beers in, made a bunch of mistakes, and was still adjusting to the new Force regen rate. There's a lot more on the table here (including getting DTPS on the 2nd boss down significantly by not being a derp). Far and away my biggest mistake from the night was not making enough of an effort to Shroud/Interrupt "Torch" whilst tanking the other 2, because 60%+ of the damage taken in that fight was from his flamethrower.

DPS is up significantly, DTPS is down significantly, TPS is up very significantly, and FPS (fun per second) is off the scale. HPS will probably go up a bit too once I do a better/luckier job of using Energize procs to shorten time between FL channels. I frequently delayed FL one GCD to squeeze in a Maul so that I wouldn't badly overcap Force mid-channel.

Edit: Bulwark stacks are still capped at 8, FYI.
As someone who was happy about the tanks seeming to be balanced finally at the start of 2.0, this post is a soul crusher to me. Playing a Jugg tank myself, I was hoping the expansion might finally be our time to shine or at least stand on equal footing, but I guess not <hangs head in shame>

I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/

Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
02.28.2013 , 07:56 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It wasn't meant to make 8% Absorb break even with 20% Shield. It was meant to ameliorate the lack of it so that, while KW is down, you're at least getting *something*.

Of course, as of the latest PTS, they increased the number of baseline KW stacks to 15 (I'm curious as to whether this will increase the number of KB stacks as well or if that is still capped at 8) to offset the fact that KW stacks burn off so quickly now. Nearly doubling the number of stacks is pretty effective, if a bit lacking in creativity, but I'll take those fixes where I can get 'em.
I got a chance to log in this morning before work, but only for a couple minutes. The talent tree is still showing that it caps at 8, but I didn't have an opportunity to actually play around with it. Haven't really been able to mess with anything yet since it was late last night that I finally got my Sin copied instead of a series of fail messages.
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Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
02.28.2013 , 08:01 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/
Yes
TORVA NEX! (The Site) (The Video)
"You don't have to say more than that!!"
Grumpf =Tankasin / G'rumpf =Mara / Gru'mpf =Jugg / Grum'pf =P-Tech
Grump'f =Shadow / G'rump'f =Scoundrel / Gr'umpf =Operative / Jei'Dahl =Merc

Botho's Avatar


Botho
02.28.2013 , 08:03 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
With the damage nerf to Shock.
Sry what damage nerf to shock, did I miss something?

But all said and done, todays patch has made a difference, I went into Hammer station to kill the first couple of small packs with my healer companion.

Was a single gold mob, and a pack of 4 normals I tried with, pre patch my KW was down on the single mob after about 5secs considering it was coming off in chunks of 2. Onthe 4 normals, well even worse.

Now tho at the worst its maybe down for a couple of secs or not at all. And you can feel it. We are all in all still spikey compared to the other tanks but atleast now our main method of survival is a lot more stable now.


p.s I dont beleive we are stupid good as some one put it, except in the context that before today we where stupid bad.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.28.2013 , 08:57 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
As someone who was happy about the tanks seeming to be balanced finally at the start of 2.0, this post is a soul crusher to me. Playing a Jugg tank myself, I was hoping the expansion might finally be our time to shine or at least stand on equal footing, but I guess not <hangs head in shame>

I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/
I think everything that was done to Assassin needed to be done, but now small changes need to be made to the other tanks to compensate.

Before, we had a talent (Energize) that was supposed to be a core mechanic that we could never use because perpetual Force starvation meant we couldn't use the skill (Thrash) that would trigger it. In the first build of 2.0, that stayed identical, but they added *another* proc off that same skill (that we wouldn't be able to use either). That was fixed via Force cost changes.

Our shield buff (Dark Ward) was falling off SO fast on trash packs that it was seriously problematic. They kind of brute-forced a change, but all it really does was make us viable on trash again, and effectively gave us a permanent +20% shield chance on bosses. It was a needed change, but it also makes Assassins even sturdier.

I'm not going to sit here and say I have the answers on how to make Juggy and PT equal, but I'm sure people with more intimate experience tanking on those classes can offer up some solid suggestions.

To be clear: I don't give a hoot about being "the best" tanking class (I think that should vary based on what you're tanking, and generally be lower than the margin of error of a parse), I just want to play a viable tanking class that isn't outrageously more difficult for a group to accommodate (which is what Sin was in the first PTS build).

Quote: Originally Posted by Botho View Post
Sry what damage nerf to shock, did I miss something?

But all said and done, todays patch has made a difference, I went into Hammer station to kill the first couple of small packs with my healer companion.

Was a single gold mob, and a pack of 4 normals I tried with, pre patch my KW was down on the single mob after about 5secs considering it was coming off in chunks of 2. Onthe 4 normals, well even worse.

Now tho at the worst its maybe down for a couple of secs or not at all. And you can feel it. We are all in all still spikey compared to the other tanks but atleast now our main method of survival is a lot more stable now.


p.s I dont beleive we are stupid good as some one put it, except in the context that before today we where stupid bad.
They removed the +Damage from Electrify, and replaced with with -Force cost. That's the damage nerf. It's noticeable.

I think we are "stupid good" as we already had theoretically competitive (or better) overall mitigation offset by unreasonable spikiness, and already best-of-breed DPS that was limited by Force starvation.

Last night's build drastically reduced spikiness (and increased our overall effective mitigation) and removed Force starvation as a consideration. We take less damage, we do more damage, and there should also be a trickle down (via Energize procs) to doing more self-healing as well.

"Stupid good" is a relative term, and a *competent* Assassin/Shadow is currently in a very good (or bad, depending on perspective) place in comparison to the other tank ACs. Again, I don't think Assassin needs to be nerfed, but the other tanks need to be boosted to compensate for the changes from last night.
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Botho's Avatar


Botho
02.28.2013 , 09:26 AM | #26
Ah yea I see, I guess tho the double up in bonus threat there will make up for it. It's not a major thing.

Taleek's Avatar


Taleek
02.28.2013 , 12:42 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
For the record, as of today's build on PTS, Assassin just got *stupid* good.

Force Management is basically trivial. With a decent rate of shielding, I'm literally not using Saber Strike because I can't spend enough Force (Force Lightning is obscenely Force-positive whilst tanking).

On top of that, the extra charges in Dark Ward mean that tanking trash isn't a painful and dicey proposition.

2/2 in Conspirator's Cloak is almost a necessity now, because now there's significant opportunity to use Thrash, and Maul becomes very Force-efficient damage/threat. With the damage nerf to Shock, it also makes for a good stand-in to build even more threat than before.

I'm having a ton of fun with this PTS build, but I do have a very real concern that the devs went a hair too far and Assassin is now significantly overtuned. That's not a problem in and of itself, but I'd hope it's addressed via buffs to Juggernaut and Powertech tanks rather than negative rebalancing to Assassin.

They *finally* made it viable to do more than just Shock, Wither, Force Lightning, and Saber Strike (with the rare Thrash to avoid wasting Force), and I am digging it. With the sheer volume of Force that is available to spend now, Assassin is an obscene threat machine.

Here is a Hammer Station from tonight. It was late, I was a couple beers in, made a bunch of mistakes, and was still adjusting to the new Force regen rate. There's a lot more on the table here (including getting DTPS on the 2nd boss down significantly by not being a derp). Far and away my biggest mistake from the night was not making enough of an effort to Shroud/Interrupt "Torch" whilst tanking the other 2, because 60%+ of the damage taken in that fight was from his flamethrower.

DPS is up significantly, DTPS is down significantly, TPS is up very significantly, and FPS (fun per second) is off the scale. HPS will probably go up a bit too once I do a better/luckier job of using Energize procs to shorten time between FL channels. I frequently delayed FL one GCD to squeeze in a Maul so that I wouldn't badly overcap Force mid-channel.

Edit: Bulwark stacks are still capped at 8, FYI.
I would make the argument that force management was always fairly trivial on a Shadow/Assasin, at least compared to the other tanks, given that Force doesn't regenerate slower the less you have, and how quickly it regenerates to begin with. However, I agree the changes have made Shadow/Assasin a lot more powerful, but I am not sure if they are OP yet.

The changes to force costs have definitely made them easier to play, and the change to Ward is great, though sometimes on trash pulls I do still find myself having all of my charges eaten up because I just shield THAT damn much, but its usually only a second or two away from being usable again. I think some testing needs to be done to see if the higher shield chance Shadow/Assassin can obtain are properly offset by their lower armor values or not. I do still die on trash pulls if I try to pull too much, so I think at the very least they are not god tanks.

Whether or not the three classes are balanced I can't say, I think the Vg/PT have an advantage in that they get higher absorb values and higher armor, but I'm not sure about how Guard/Jugg fit into this model on the PTS currently. I will optimize my Vanguard tonight and see how well he stacks up to my Assassin in terms of durability and threat and post my general impressions for y'all.
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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
02.28.2013 , 02:59 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
To be clear: I don't give a hoot about being "the best" tanking class (I think that should vary based on what you're tanking, and generally be lower than the margin of error of a parse), I just want to play a viable tanking class that isn't outrageously more difficult for a group to accommodate (which is what Sin was in the first PTS build).
The thing is, I agree with this sentiment, but I think Assassins as they stood on the PTS (prior to this most recent patch) maintained their role they had on Live, that being the most difficult tank class to play in terms of staying alive, but the best tank class to play concerning long term survivability (less healing required over the course of a fight), threat, and cooldowns.

What the changes did do, was turn Shadow survivability into less of a player skill issue especially in boss fights (refreshing Kinetic Ward stacks in a boss fight will be about as difficult now as refreshing your accuracy debuff, which was also made even easier), make generating threat as a Shadow even less of an issue than it was before, while still maintaining the things that made a skilled Shadow a more viable asset in terms of endgame raiding.

I actually think Vanguards still sit in a really good spot, as they are STILL the simplest tank to play (winning out groups favor in things like pugs), and they fare amazingly well with the changes to shielding in this patch. But I'm a little worried about whats going to happen with Guardians/Juggs now, because even with the substantial buffs they received, I'm not sure it was enough to catch up with the other tanks. It looks like Assassin/Shadow are once again going to be the preferred progression tanks, and Vanguard/Powertech looks like it will not only be the preferred pug tank, but also be able to give Sins/Shadows a run for their money in the progression tank role.

Guardians/Juggs seem to be on the bottom of the totem pole once again, or more accurately, somewhere in the middle in no man's land, where they're never the favored tank for any type of content unless player skill makes up the difference in the actual tank class capabilities.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.28.2013 , 05:35 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Guardians/Juggs seem to be on the bottom of the totem pole once again, or more accurately, somewhere in the middle in no man's land, where they're never the favored tank for any type of content unless player skill makes up the difference in the actual tank class capabilities.
I don't really see being the "compromise tank" as being all that bad: Guardians are going to be *way* easier to play than they used to be, thanks to threat generation fixes as well as massive threat buffs and passive mitigation increases, so I highly doubt they'll be sidelined for either Ops or FPs. Their higher DR (15% increase armor from talents and 3% DR from Guardian Slash) coupled with the addition of Saber Reflect (seriously, Saber Reflect is *disgustingly amazing*) means that I'm not really worried about them not having the chops for F/T fights: they're going to have virtually the the same DR as a VG (175% armor rather than 176% but the same 9% increased DR that VGs get) and they have substantially better CDs than VGs as well as Blade Barrier to smooth out the potential burstiness.

Honestly, my biggest worry has continually been that Defense is just being tossed to the wayside with the exception of Guardians who actually have some use for it because they're stuck with the same low Shield/Abs that they currently have. My hope is that the devs are going to do *something* to make Defense rating apply to Resist chance or have the tank stances convert a percentage of total Defense chance into additional Resist chance such that Defense isn't just the lolstat it looks like it's gonna be.
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Corran's Avatar


Corran
02.28.2013 , 06:57 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
As someone who was happy about the tanks seeming to be balanced finally at the start of 2.0, this post is a soul crusher to me. Playing a Jugg tank myself, I was hoping the expansion might finally be our time to shine or at least stand on equal footing, but I guess not <hangs head in shame>

I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/
except they aren't, and using multiple assassin tanks in an operation can be a hinderance to gearing up your raid, and can lead to drama if you have two inquisitor tanks, one or two inquisitor healers and one or two inquisitor dps. with neither jugg advanced class being able to heal this is not an issue

furthermore, raiding isn't about just standing there and taking it. you have to have situational awareness and know when to use what abilities. this has always meant that shadow/assassin tanking required a higher skill curve and still will. what has happened in the last few months is ridiculous gear inflation that made tanking a joke to the current content.

as much as many of us one or two decades mmorpg experienced vets would like it to be, the game can't be too hard. mmorpg's are a niche market of gaming that has hit a critical mass if the mass layoffs to mmorpg companies is any indicator. the game has to be accessible in order to maintain the most amount of players possible and keep revenue streaming to EA. remember, this is the same company that shut down earth and beyond even though it was profitable at the time. well, some of you were probably zygotes when that happened.

even blizzard is losing subs and they are not necessarily going to other mmorpg's. when my guild imploded after we beat heroic lady sinestra just a month and a half into cataclysm, only about 20% went to other mmorpgs. others just left the genre entirely and have not been back.

if shadows/assassins are the most populous tank, then having them also be the hardest to play to achieve the same mitigation as the other two tank types doesn't just hurt those individual players, but the community on the whole as the already-present stigma gets worse during a gear reset and fewer tanks become available in the queue. you already see complaints of hours long waits for dps players. now imagine if healers are waiting an hour or longer.
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