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Madness Sin 2.0 as it stands.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Madness Sin 2.0 as it stands.

bbrooks's Avatar


bbrooks
02.23.2013 , 11:31 AM | #1
Hey, so i Posted this on the PTS forums, but wanted to drop it here to see what you guys not over testing think. They made some pretty big changes to the skill trees, and only deception has access to duplicity, and calculated mind was removed as well as unearthed knowledge so now there is no point in using shock. They did increase deathmarks to 15 per DF, and DF now hits 5 people. They also gave us the same buff that madness sorcs get to Crushing Darkness, with a two second duration increase.

Little background on me, High end raider as a Shieldtech PT, but thats out of necessity, In PVE, by far my favorite and the spec i play best on live is 7/3/31 Madness sin. Parses on ops dummy usually parse between 1850 to right around 2k on really good parses. The thing I enjoy about it is the versatility it brings to the table. There is a little of everything to love on live, Burst with Deathfield/Duplicity and really solid sustained damage through DoT's and the extra force regen.

Been playing on the PTS for a couple days now and just have to say I dont know how they seem to think this is a buff, and if they are intentionally nerfing the spec, they either don't listen to player feedback because of madness sin is the class they most think needs a nerf, they are more lost than we originally though. Currently on live we have two tools that help us with energy regen. Duplicity gives us a hardhitting and very cheap maul proc which when also proccing raze it makes force management easy. The other nerf that some people seem to be missing is the fact that they took out calculating mind, which is the main tool we have to keep our rotation flowing. Every time I try to parse on the PTS its almost unbearable the amount I have to saber strike for force. Making duplicity unreachable by madness/balance is a nerf, but calculating mind is what really hurts. Keeping that and losing duplicity would have been manageable I think, but without both the class is pretty close to destroyed, in playstyle and numbetrs.

I have 2 other dps toons on the PTS, and I'm not nearly as proficient at either on Live. I have a vengeance jugg and a lightning sorc. I have parsed alll 3 and I know that both of the other two specs got some pretty significant buff, but the gap I am seeing is pretty ridiculous.

Lightning Sorc: 2400
Vengeance Jugg: between 2250-2350 depending on ravage procing
Madness Sin: Last one i did was 2075

It seems pretty ridiculous that I can do pretty much the same thing on Live that I can on test, while other classes are way ahead. I'm pretty sure they are gonna have to buff the force regen on madness, or it will be useless. Just Giving us calculating mind back would be a huge step, but not sure Bioware is competent enough to help. Here's hoping I guess

Beels
Beels 50 madness Sin Phudgee 50 Sheild tech PT Deex 50 Vengence Jugg Phattness 50 Lightning Sorc Chubbzilla 50 Medic Commando

http://therevenant-guild.com

spond's Avatar


spond
02.23.2013 , 02:18 PM | #2
I've been very concerned about this issue (calc mind especially); however, I'm kinda wondering about that additional 15% from bloodletting after you knock an enemy down to 30%.

If you dps on a dummy is 2075, and we increase that dps by 15% (I know, the hard increase is inappropriate) you would theoretically get 2386. Which should bring overall fight dps to 2168.

Now, lets look at overall (OPS Gen, OPS Boss, PVP)

OPS Gen (and PVP) if you took lambaste and were able to apply it to adds (or grouped players) with DF, you will do major dps. If you have Cal Mind, you would never run out of force. On top of everything else, you wouldn't need to use lightning charge and would be able to have raze proc on every 8.

OPS Boss - this is kinda a kick in the teeth as you will not be able to really do damage until the last 30% of the fight. This is an issue as ops groups are picky about teammates. Madness may be seen in the same light as Deception (why I speced out of it a while ago.)

I would love it if bioware could FIX my char transfer to field test the changes on champions and OPS bosses.

bbrooks's Avatar


bbrooks
02.23.2013 , 02:46 PM | #3
Posted this in the other thread also, but just clarifying. Lacerate with lambaste does not apply the discharge DoT, all it does is do a tiny amount more damage from the actuall lightning charge you have on your saber. Does not make lacerate any more worth it, think it's barely usable on trash, and wont help ST damage
Beels 50 madness Sin Phudgee 50 Sheild tech PT Deex 50 Vengence Jugg Phattness 50 Lightning Sorc Chubbzilla 50 Medic Commando

http://therevenant-guild.com

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
02.23.2013 , 10:58 PM | #4
I think a few skills needs to changed.

Lightning burns : It prics 100% whenever your lighting charge deals damage from melee, and it uses up your death marks. You still come out ahead with the skill, but it's somewhat annoying.

Lambaste : Proc lightning charge on lacerate, I believe the idea is for people to take this talent with lightning burn, so you get Death field -> lacerate-> lightning charge proc -> lightning burn on all targets. while it looks good on paper, lacerate cost 40 force cost and hits like a wet noodle..

They need to swap the 2 around : Lambaste should be in the darkness tree, while the 'spike from front' is move to the lightning tree. So lacerate in darkness becomes a 'AoE self heal', while Madness gets to use maul from anywhere during the proc.

Going 0/18/28 (Mad Maul) is still viable, and I get better numbers on it compared to a 8/2/36 build. Not mauling just feels.. wrong..

bbrooks's Avatar


bbrooks
02.23.2013 , 11:31 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
I think a few skills needs to changed.

Lightning burns : It prics 100% whenever your lighting charge deals damage from melee, and it uses up your death marks. You still come out ahead with the skill, but it's somewhat annoying.

Lambaste : Proc lightning charge on lacerate, I believe the idea is for people to take this talent with lightning burn, so you get Death field -> lacerate-> lightning charge proc -> lightning burn on all targets. while it looks good on paper, lacerate cost 40 force cost and hits like a wet noodle..

They need to swap the 2 around : Lambaste should be in the darkness tree, while the 'spike from front' is move to the lightning tree. So lacerate in darkness becomes a 'AoE self heal', while Madness gets to use maul from anywhere during the proc.

Going 0/18/28 (Mad Maul) is still viable, and I get better numbers on it compared to a 8/2/36 build. Not mauling just feels.. wrong..
While I like the idea of getting the front facing maul, that wouldn't even get close to solving the problem that is currently on PTS. The big problem isn't that we dont get maul (that does suck) but that our force regen is what is really hurting. The face to face maul does not have the 75% cost reduction on it that duplicity does, i believe its a 25% force cost. While missing duplicity does suck, giving us the front maul wouldn't make a huge difference IMO
Beels 50 madness Sin Phudgee 50 Sheild tech PT Deex 50 Vengence Jugg Phattness 50 Lightning Sorc Chubbzilla 50 Medic Commando

http://therevenant-guild.com

spond's Avatar


spond
02.24.2013 , 12:01 AM | #6
The only hope is bioware is reading this feedback and moves madness back to where it was.

I love how they chose to tone down madness and deception while tune up the Mara's. Makes absolutely NO sense.

NickDrakeRoad's Avatar


NickDrakeRoad
02.24.2013 , 06:31 AM | #7
Good post and I do really hope Bioware reads threads like these and sees our concerns. Just feels like balance/madness shadows/assassins are getting ****ed over just because bioware wanted to tone down the tanking tree getting low resource costing back stabs since the tank tree gets that new type of front stab. If double strike is my only real melee option then balance spec as a shadow will become redundant and boring fast. I loved the art of getting behind someone and backstabbing them and quickly moving back to kiting distance.
Daireann - Concealment Op
Eatheito - Balance Shadow

Calvin_Mago's Avatar


Calvin_Mago
02.24.2013 , 09:58 AM | #8
Right now theres nothing a madness sin can do that a lethality operative can't do better. Corrosive grenade (aoe dot!) has no cooldown anymore, and corrosive dart never did. Dots do internal damage. Roll makes the operative quicker in getting in and out of combat, and even to places on the map.

Flashbang is still instant while madness lost insta whirlwind. Energy management is stupidly easy now for the operative. And the operative can do a crazy burst with backstab- shiv - cull - cull - cull, or even hidden strike + the above and 4 culls.
Suul'ton - Suul
<Seraphic Nexus>

Natewnz's Avatar


Natewnz
02.24.2013 , 01:02 PM | #9
This (de)evolution of assassins talent trees is worrying .. hope BW will take note and look it over before the changes go live.

spond's Avatar


spond
02.24.2013 , 04:06 PM | #10
I don't know what the devs were thinking with the entire assassin spec.

They've dumbed down madness (and lowered it's dps)

They've brought deception back to pre 1.4 (dropped its burst without giving more sustained dps)

At this point, might as well roll mara's and just completely trash the non tanking assassin specs.

Mara's have always done more dps and been less difficult to play.

I just don't get what the developers are trying to do.

This honestly, may end up the walking away point for me...... I don't know.....