Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.13.2013 , 03:03 PM | #361
Concerning supplies. Everyone on the Ravager was a zombie. Visas excluded because Nihilus personally 'spared her' evident through the fact he devoured his entire planet and let her live. I mean, look at Colonel Tobin, he's on that ship for a couple of days and bam, he's half a zombie consumed by the dark side. The same must apply for the Sith troopers because simply put, Nihilus instinctively drained the life force of those around him.

The same applies for anyone stationed on Malachor V, as the quote I provided shows, prolonged exposure the planet has the same effects as prolonged exposure to Nihilus does. And lets just clarify, the Sith assassins at least were not normal healthy human beings. They had been broken by Malachor V and turned into soulless slaves. This is supported by the fact that in cut content (can't find the vid) Sion speaks with one of the assassins and the assassin speaks like Nihilus.

Also, Force users could go without food for prolonged periods of time.

And on the topic of ammo and replacement parts, your making the assumption that Traya will run out and her weapons will wear down. But the lack of full-scale war means their initial supplies would be sufficient. The same applies for fuel, her fleet isn't going to be doing much, so why the need to refuel?

But either way, G0-T0 does not have a monopoly on these markets, so if Traya really does need supplies, she can steal them straight from G0-T0. Also, the ability to steal supplies relies on knowing where they are headed. But if G0-T0 doesn't know where Traya is based then he can't steal her supplies. In fact, after the destruction of Malachor V and her temporarily presumed death, Traya can simply restock and them resume the fight. But like I said, she's not going to need much resupplies.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.13.2013 , 03:10 PM | #362
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
This bounty was never paid out, so we have no idea how large it actually was nor whether G0-T0 was going to pay it out anyways. He was a pretty treacherous droid, and had no compunctions about lying. After all, he bluffed the Exile that he was carrying a proton core that would detonate if he was tampered with.
Well, like Warren pointed out, it means G0-T0 can place as big a bounty he wants on Traya and any Sith and he won't have to pay it.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.13.2013 , 03:19 PM | #363
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Concerning supplies. Everyone on the Ravager was a zombie. Visas excluded because Nihilus personally 'spared her' evident through the fact he devoured his entire planet and let her live. I mean, look at Colonel Tobin, he's on that ship for a couple of days and bam, he's half a zombie consumed by the dark side. The same must apply for the Sith troopers because simply put, Nihilus instinctively drained the life force of those around him.
You're missing my point.

Traya =/= Nihilus She didn't demonstrate the same powers on that kind of scale, and she also wanted Nihilus destroyed in order to stop his rampage through the Galaxy (not simply cause he betrayed her).

I didn't see Traya running around draining people of their life energies left and right (yes she took out those Jedi Masters, but I don't think she can pull something like what Nihilus was doing). Heck, for all we know, Traya would have to replace all the Zombies because they stopped functioning when Nihilus isn't present.

Remember those Sith Troopers in the Freedon Nadd Tomb, they weren't exactly zombiifed, nor were the dingbat officers.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

The same applies for anyone stationed on Malachor V, as the quote I provided shows, prolonged exposure the planet has the same effects as prolonged exposure to Nihilus does. And lets just clarify, the Sith assassins at least were not normal healthy human beings. They had been broken by Malachor V and turned into soulless slaves. This is supported by the fact that in cut content (can't find the vid) Sion speaks with one of the assassins and the assassin speaks like Nihilus.
That video could also mean that the assassin was being possessed by Nihilus...

I'm not arguing the idea that Malachor V corrupted people, however Traya considered Nihilus to be a plague on the galaxy that needed to be destroyed. I suspect that you really can't use that kind of power without losing your humanity and turning into a mindless hunger, something I don't think Traya would do.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

Also, Force users could go without food for prolonged periods of time.
I already stated that, however there are limits to how long they can do that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

And on the topic of ammo and replacement parts, your making the assumption that Traya will run out and her weapons will wear down. But the lack of full-scale war means their initial supplies would be sufficient. The same applies for fuel, her fleet isn't going to be doing much, so why the need to refuel?
Remember the conversation between Tobin, Visas, and Canderous...

Canderous mentioned the ship shouldn't even be flying in the condition it was in. Visas made the statement that Nihilus' will was holding it together. I think he was only able to do this because of what he had become, which exacts a price that Traya was clearly unwilling to pay.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

But either way, G0-T0 does not have a monopoly on these markets, so if Traya really does need supplies, she can steal them straight from G0-T0. Also, the ability to steal supplies relies on knowing where they are headed. But if G0-T0 doesn't know where Traya is based then he can't steal her supplies. In fact, after the destruction of Malachor V and her temporarily presumed death, Traya can simply restock and them resume the fight. But like I said, she's not going to need much resupplies.
Odds are that G0-T0 is more likely to find out who is shipping Traya supplies long before she figures out who is shipping supplies to G0-T0. She's more apt to target merchants and smugglers at random, simply because she lacks the intelligence network to figure out who is supplying G0-T0, while G0-T0's intell network would probably figure out who is shipping supplies to Traya, or at least figure out who is likely shipping supplies to her.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.13.2013 , 03:20 PM | #364
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Her fleet would need the following:
  1. Food
  2. Fuel
  3. Ammunition/weapons
  4. replacement parts (to replace worn out equipment, repair damage, etc.)

I'm guessing every planet Nihilus killed everything on, was then picked over and looted for supplies. However, Traya herself admitted she finds no victory in tactics that wipe out all life in the galaxy. Fact of the matter is her forces will need supplies, that gives G0-T0 an advantage because he could just hire people to hijack (or even simpler, just destroy) freighters that are doing supply runs to Traya's forces.
I think that in this galaxy which has just seen decades of constant warfare and degradation of local authority, it will be fairly easy to find ready ammunition and weapons to replace losses from battle. And it's a bit over the top to suggest that G0-T0 will be able to block off access to all the food and fuel in the galaxy, we clearly see ships coming and going at their leisure without concerns for fuel shortages.

The case of Citadel Station is also unique because it required a massive amount of fuel (being used continuously, the Sith Fleet will not be underway at all times) in order to stay in orbit above Telos. And it was a huge, continent sized space station. That tends to push your fuel consumption into the mind-bogglingly expensive range.

And the Sith can always protect their own supplies by escorting them with their warships. If G0-T0 wants to play a game of piracy, he'll lose to the Sith's superior space forces in a real hurry, especially because he relied on catching freighters before they jumped to hyperspace, while the Sith have interdictors.


Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
I'm also going to point out that contrary to the idea of G0-T0 being a minor guy in the exchange, he had a Galactic Wide intelligence network, remember the guy with the Czercha Contract to repair droids, owed "Goto" money, not Slusk.

Remember Slusk's lieutenant (can't think of her name), mentioned that she should be running things at Telos, but "Goto" doesn't like people killing their superiors... He controlled a lot more than simply the operations on Nar Shaddaa.

So G0-T0, may have significantly more resources at his disposal than people here are assuming, cause if he wasn't the top dog in the Exchange, he clearly was fairly close to being in that position.
I believe that the Telos operation was a startup cell that spun off of Nar Shaddaa's planetary cell. After all, Citadel Station was a new development and so G0-T0 was the first one to get his foot in the door in the interest of "galactic stability". The fact that Slusk's LT wanted to kill him but felt limited by G0-T0's imperative (and remember she still did betray him) to maintain the organizational hierarchy. So this may actually provide a further impetus for rebellion among his subordinates, since they're chafing under his attempts to alter the way the Exchange usually works.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.13.2013 , 03:25 PM | #365
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
I think that in this galaxy which has just seen decades of constant warfare and degradation of local authority, it will be fairly easy to find ready ammunition and weapons to replace losses from battle. And it's a bit over the top to suggest that G0-T0 will be able to block off access to all the food and fuel in the galaxy, we clearly see ships coming and going at their leisure without concerns for fuel shortages.

The case of Citadel Station is also unique because it required a massive amount of fuel (being used continuously, the Sith Fleet will not be underway at all times) in order to stay in orbit above Telos. And it was a huge, continent sized space station. That tends to push your fuel consumption into the mind-bogglingly expensive range.

And the Sith can always protect their own supplies by escorting them with their warships. If G0-T0 wants to play a game of piracy, he'll lose to the Sith's superior space forces in a real hurry, especially because he relied on catching freighters before they jumped to hyperspace, while the Sith have interdictors.
G0-T0 wouldn't mind the Sith doing that, cause it ties up their resources. While G0-T0's pirates don't have to show up to harass everything, the Sith have to escort everything.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
I believe that the Telos operation was a startup cell that spun off of Nar Shaddaa's planetary cell. After all, Citadel Station was a new development and so G0-T0 was the first one to get his foot in the door in the interest of "galactic stability". The fact that Slusk's LT wanted to kill him but felt limited by G0-T0's imperative (and remember she still did betray him) to maintain the organizational hierarchy. So this may actually provide a further impetus for rebellion among his subordinates, since they're chafing under his attempts to alter the way the Exchange usually works.
Yes, but they have to feel their boss is vulnerable, and G0-T0 wasn't exactly considered weak. Heck if he's actually got a Sith worried enough to take him on, then seriously people would be afraid of "Goto's" wrath.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.13.2013 , 03:45 PM | #366
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
You're missing my point.

Traya =/= Nihilus She didn't demonstrate the same powers on that kind of scale, and she also wanted Nihilus destroyed in order to stop his rampage through the Galaxy (not simply cause he betrayed her).

I didn't see Traya running around draining people of their life energies left and right (yes she took out those Jedi Masters, but I don't think she can pull something like what Nihilus was doing). Heck, for all we know, Traya would have to replace all the Zombies because they stopped functioning when Nihilus isn't present.
I get your point, but you forget that regardless of Nihilus' existent of not, those troops are still present and have still been corrupted. Nihilus didn't have anything to do with them functioning either, they are not droids connected to a central computer, they will not 'fail' when Nihilus vanishes. If anything they will improve. And let's not forget Malachor V either, it had the same effect and those Sith practically fed off its energies and many troopers and Sith alike were stationed therw

Let's also remember that all the Sith in the Sith Triumvirate had Nihilus' ability, but simply to a lesser extent. They have all learned to feed of the Force, and in turn it has consumed them. Yes this doesn't apply to everyone but it means that the supplies Traya already has will last longer and she will not have to restock so often.

And I don't get how the condition of the Ravager has any bearing on the need for Traya's fleet to refuel and resupply ammo...

And how exactly is G0-T0 going to stop Traya restocking supplies when he thinks she's dead? He isn't going to be monitoring those things any longer.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.13.2013 , 03:46 PM | #367
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Yes, but they have to feel their boss is vulnerable, and G0-T0 wasn't exactly considered weak. Heck if he's actually got a Sith worried enough to take him on, then seriously people would be afraid of "Goto's" wrath.
I think when one is being held at saber point, those feelings go out the window.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
03.13.2013 , 04:28 PM | #368
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I get your point, but you forget that regardless of Nihilus' existent of not, those troops are still present and have still been corrupted. Nihilus didn't have anything to do with them functioning either, they are not droids connected to a central computer, they will not 'fail' when Nihilus vanishes. If anything they will improve. And let's not forget Malachor V either, it had the same effect and those Sith practically fed off its energies and many troopers and Sith alike were stationed therw

Let's also remember that all the Sith in the Sith Triumvirate had Nihilus' ability, but simply to a lesser extent. They have all learned to feed of the Force, and in turn it has consumed them. Yes this doesn't apply to everyone but it means that the supplies Traya already has will last longer and she will not have to restock so often.

And I don't get how the condition of the Ravager has any bearing on the need for Traya's fleet to refuel and resupply ammo...

And how exactly is G0-T0 going to stop Traya restocking supplies when he thinks she's dead? He isn't going to be monitoring those things any longer.
I don't think G0-T0 would be fooled by some random corpse, and even more when their isn't a corpse. Why? Because he knows who he is fighting against. Traya isn't the "Lord of Betrayal" for nothing. She will lie to your face, and manipulate you into a position to strike. G0-T0 would want the corpse of Traya before he resumed normal activities.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Canino's Avatar


Canino
03.13.2013 , 04:35 PM | #369
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
You are assuming, quite idealistically, that there is indeed honor among thieves. Criminals, the Exchange included, are not some honorable fraternity who will rally together to defend Nar Shaddaa. Quite the opposite, under the threat of a "second Taris", they will immediately look for some way to keep the Sith off their back. And if G0-T0 is the key to that, then he will be betrayed in a heartbeat by the same people who already are looking to depose him and take his job. It just gives them a convenient excuse.

The spectre of Taris will cast a very long shadow over Nar Shaddaa, and every single member of the Exchange will be thinking first and foremost about their survival. They're already ready to betray each other, this is just an extra incentive. Criminals aren't fans of the Sith, but the Sith have always tolerated the underworld and its slave and spice trades. Furthermore, the Exchange will be terrified of the Sith after Taris. They view the Sith as dangerous and insane, and will avoid conflict with them first and foremost.
There is honor among thieves- when all they have are each other. The Battle of Nar Shaddaa. Yes, the Admiral was ordered to lose, but my point is that smugglers can win, and have done it. They also banded together to win, and that's what counts.
Quote:
Despite the fact that they were up against a well-trained Imperial strike group, the small group of smugglers were able not only to stand up to the Imperials, but force them out of the area around Nar Shaddaa. Led by Mako Spince and Han Solo, the smugglers bested the Imperial forces. Though the smugglers suffered severe casualties, they dealt the Empire many losses in return.
Quote:
The smuggler fleet was a collection of ships belonging to many smugglers on Nar Shaddaa who agreed to set aside their differences and defend their mutual home.
~Wookiepedia
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.13.2013 , 04:35 PM | #370
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I get your point, but you forget that regardless of Nihilus' existent of not, those troops are still present and have still been corrupted. Nihilus didn't have anything to do with them functioning either, they are not droids connected to a central computer, they will not 'fail' when Nihilus vanishes. If anything they will improve. And let's not forget Malachor V either, it had the same effect and those Sith practically fed off its energies and many troopers and Sith alike were stationed therw

Let's also remember that all the Sith in the Sith Triumvirate had Nihilus' ability, but simply to a lesser extent. They have all learned to feed of the Force, and in turn it has consumed them. Yes this doesn't apply to everyone but it means that the supplies Traya already has will last longer and she will not have to restock so often.

And I don't get how the condition of the Ravager has any bearing on the need for Traya's fleet to refuel and resupply ammo...

And how exactly is G0-T0 going to stop Traya restocking supplies when he thinks she's dead? He isn't going to be monitoring those things any longer.
I'm saying unless we're dealing with walking corpses they will still need food, Traya wasn't prone to using that power.

The big thing concerning Ravanger is how the ship was falling apart, Traya isn't prone to want to be a ship that is on the verge of coming apart, quite literally. All were derelicts from the Malachor graveyard (or a good portion of them anyways), they aren't exactly in tip top shape, so if Traya wants to get them ready for prolonged combat, she'll have to get them repaired.

Reasoning:

I believe the battle over Telos was the first time those ships had been in combat since Malachor V, who knows how many systems on that ship were on the verge of failure. Plus if you look at the hull breaches all over the Ravanger, there was actually a good chance if there was a disruption in the particle fields, that you'd have explosive decompressions all over the ship.

So I'm not sure Traya could attack immediately with those ships (or she arguably could but going off the assumption doesn't want to die by breathing vacuum), she would be trying to get her little fleet spaceworthy again and using assassins to do recon.

Meanwhile, G0-T0 would be busy acquiring a fleet of his own. The question would be who will find whom in the interm, and G0-T0 has the better intelligence network, the reason Traya's force managed to remain undetected was cause they weren't exactly active, once her forces start trying to gather information, G0-T0 is going to be able track them down and "delete" them.

Again I'm of the mindset G0-T0 is most likely to win this, he's the least likely to underestimate his opponent. Traya may be old, but she's a Sith Lord, you don't get to be that position by being an incompetitent idiot (or you don't last long). Traya is rather likely to underestimate "Goto" and more prone to underestimate him if she knows G0-T0 is a droid.

There is another key thing to remember, if word got out in Traya's ranks that G0-T0 is a droid, Traya's going to be dealing with plots to kill her constantly, it's bad enough she's having problems eliminating a two-bit crime-boss.

The longer the fight continues the better G0-T0's odds are. For all the damage Traya may cause, the fact she can't immediately eliminate "Goto" and he continually remains active and yet still manages to elude her, the stronger and more capable he seems in the eyes of the underworld.

Darth Traya is a Sith Lord, many in the criminal community are scared of Sith and Jedi, the fact he has a hard time taking Traya down (despite her age) is expected, cause she's a Sith Lord for crying out loud. So in the expectations game "Goto" would be expected to fail. However, as time drags on, Traya is similarly unable to take down "Goto" which would be totally unexpected and thus the same criminal community's view of "Goto" and his reputation would grow to epic proportions.

Here is a Sith Lord trying to kill one man, "Goto," and yet no matter how hard this Sith tries she can't take him down, maybe this Darth Traya isn't so invincible afterall.

The longer this drags on the better G0-T0's chances of winning, he has significantly less to lose if this turns into a long dragged out conflict. He would easily be able to put together an army or at least a network of people to help his forces, simply cause he's proverbially going toe to toe with a Sith Lord and somehow surviving.