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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.11.2013 , 12:16 PM | #281
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Just because you never encountered troopers manning defensive emplacements doesn't mean the Sith wouldn't use them. The game mechanics of KotOR prohibit many things, such as taking cover in a firefight, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have happened "historically". We know that the Sith had ready access to repeating blasters, and would make good use of them when planning their deployment.
These 'just because' arguments bear no weight in the Kaggath I'm afraid. If there is no record of it, it didn't exist.

And while the Sith Commandos are no doubt tough warriors, the HK-50 droids are that much better in every respect. They are programmed killers who unlike the Sith troopers have been designed to kill and bear none of the weaknesses and imperfections of a biological - and all of the strengths. Granted they are well armed, but the HKs are better armed. The Sith have anti-droid weapons, the HKs have anti-Force sensitive weapons and weapons that can kill with a single shot. The commandos have personal energy shields, the HKs have durasteel plating on top of energy shields. The commandos have melee weapons, the HKs have flamethrowers and carbonite projectors, not to mention solid fists of steel.

The same applies for the Sith, they have the Force, lightsabers and stealth generators granted. But the HKs have anti-stealth tech, weapons that bypass lightsabers and weapons that break Force concentration. Not to mention the fact the Sith have to get in close first, and the HKs are trained to kill Force sensitives specifically. I'm not saying the HKs will win, but they will do significant damage.

And concerning the MSG debate, the Trayus Academy survived because it was partially buried underground prior to the event. We have no evidence to suggest it was above ground before, and its general layout (e.g. the Trayus Core buried several kilometers beneath the surface) as well as the fact that Revan found the buried beneath the planet's surface, suggest/state this is the case. This is why it remained intact.

And again, your idea of the MSG is purely based on assumptions, while I have thin evidence, but evidence nonetheless. Firstly, its logical to bury the device underground, to ensure it wasn't immediately destroyed once activated. (I'm sure in the Star Wars era they could activate the device remotely, they can after all blow up planets.) And secondly the Remote did not interact with it, let me stress that it did not access it. It somehow redirected power from crashed ships to the device, and had it reactivated remotely. Just like Meetra did years ago. I doubt you actually have to go to a terminal to activate it, else it wouldn't have been possible to activate it at the Battle of Malachor V.

And once again 'for all we know' and 'just because' arguments bear no weight. Even if the evidence is thin, if there is no evidence to the contrary other than that evidence is weak, then we have to assume it is the case. Baseless assumptions cannot be accepted.

P.S. Kulvak, Rayla, my Lady. () Your argument is a little long-winded and complex, but I get that the crux of the argument is - convince G0-T0 your dead then strike. This is a good plan, however I think Traya could likely fake her death at Malachor V. Consider this, G0-T0's little fleet is likely to get pulled out of hyperspace prematurely, however some will likely escape. Yet Traya will have been alerted of an impending attack. She will suspect G0-T0 will attempt to reactivate that MSG (several days/weeks of planning will have to go into it, G0-T0's silence will be suspicious, making his intentions here clearer - a simple invasion could have been planned and carried out in half the time) and use it to her advantage. Leaving the planet and taking a bulk of her force with her like you said. G0-T0 arrives, blows up the planet, sees no ships leave and thinks Traya is dead.

Hooray, he goes and has an oil baths and resumes his usual activity i.e. capturing freighters above Nar Shaddaa. All Traya has to do is smuggle some assassins onto one of the those vehicles, or better yet, herself, have it captured and kill G0-T0. Checkmate.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.11.2013 , 12:26 PM | #282
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
*snip*
A few of problems here:

As far as I'm aware, Interdictors do not actually have missile launchers. See here. And even if they did the tactic employed by Admiral Trench is not a well known one. He was a military genius and had personal experience with stealthed vessels, which allowed him to develop a tactic to counter them. He did not read this in a book. And given the condition of Traya's Fleet - half dead. I doubt there are many genius tacticians left over from the Jedi Civil War who are aware of this tactic.

G0-T0's ships, if he is smart, will not have any organics on them - just droids. In such destruction, the likelihood of finding an intact memory core is small. Traya does not actually know were the MSG is seeing as the only person who has any knowledge on it is Bao-Dur himself. They certainly won't be aware that the Republic ship engine cores are key components to its reactivation.

And finally, while it does result in a successfull repelling of G0-T0's forces, it does not lead to G0-T0's death. Nor does it give Traya much means to find him. The real advantage G0-T0 has is too disappear completely. I don't believe this guy can be found, he must be drawn out.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.11.2013 , 12:28 PM | #283
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
P.S. Kulvak, Rayla, my Lady. () Your argument is a little long-winded and complex, but I get that the crux of the argument is - convince G0-T0 your dead then strike. This is a good plan, however I think Traya could likely fake her death at Malachor V. Consider this, G0-T0's little fleet is likely to get pulled out of hyperspace prematurely, however some will likely escape. Yet Traya will have been alerted of an impending attack. She will suspect G0-T0 will attempt to reactivate that MSG (several days/weeks of planning will have to go into it, G0-T0's silence will be suspicious, making his intentions here clearer - a simple invasion could have been planned and carried out in half the time) and use it to her advantage. Leaving the planet and taking a bulk of her force with her like you said. G0-T0 arrives, blows up the planet, sees no ships leave and thinks Traya is dead.

Hooray, he goes and has an oil baths and resumes his usual activity i.e. capturing freighters above Nar Shaddaa. All Traya has to do is smuggle some assassins onto one of the those vehicles, or better yet, herself, have it captured and kill G0-T0. Checkmate.
Actually it's more like: Convince him you're dead by losing a series of vicious battles that devastate his forces, then have the word spread through the underworld which will make his recruitment of mercenaries and such grind to a halt and then remove his most powerful asset, the Hk series, he has nothing left to fight with. By this time he won't be as concentrated on his droid army, Traya can take it from him and then strike at him with stealth and deception, using his one weakness, his capturing of vessels, which he will have re-adopted by this time.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.11.2013 , 12:31 PM | #284
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Actually it's more like, Convince him your dead by losing a series of vicious battles that devastate his forces, then have the word spread through the underworld which will make his recruitment of mercenaries and such grind to a halt and then remove his most powerful asset, the Hk series, he has nothing left to fight with. By this time he won't be as concentrated on his droid army, Traya can take it from him and then strike at him with stealth and deception, using his one weakness, his capturing of vessels, which he will have re-adopted by this time.
OK, but surely striking at G0-T0's powerbase after she has faked her death will reveal she is in fact very much alive? And remove that potential advantage? Sending him back into incognito mode? It seems to me that Traya is in a position to cripple G0-T0's powerbase without faking her death. But ultimately a pointless act unless it is a means to G0-T0's destruction.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.11.2013 , 12:33 PM | #285
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
OK, but surely striking at G0-T0's powerbase after she has faked her death will reveal she is in fact very much alive? And remove that potential advantage? Sending him back into incognito mode? It seems to me that Traya is in a position to cripple G0-T0's powerbase without faking her death. But ultimately a pointless act unless it is a means to G0-T0's destruction.
The attack on the factory will be done, again, with stealth, so much so that by the time he takes notice, Traya has his own droids and her Sith destroying his vessel and if need be, she can have her remaining fleet blockade the planet.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.11.2013 , 12:42 PM | #286
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
The attack on the factory will be done, again, with stealth, so much so that by the time he takes notice, Traya has his own droids and her Sith destroying his vessel and if need be, she can have her remaining fleet blockade the planet.
Sure, cripple G0-T0's powerbase and blockade Nar Shaddaa. But then we've got to think about the smuggler/bounty hunter backlash who will be likely breaking that blockade. And the fact G0-T0 could simply land on the planet's surface and wait it out. I think Traya's best tactic is to remaining under the cover of stealth until she's plunged a lightsaber into his circuitry.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.11.2013 , 12:44 PM | #287
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
These 'just because' arguments bear no weight in the Kaggath I'm afraid. If there is no record of it, it didn't exist.
So what you're saying is that G0-T0 can modify and upgrade his droids to his heart's desire, but the Sith can't simply take the automatic weapons they already have and mount them defensively in their own gosh darn base?
That's patently absurd, since this isn't even a complex consideration, it's just basic defensive planning that all Sith troopers would be familiar with.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And while the Sith Commandos are no doubt tough warriors, the HK-50 droids are that much better in every respect. They are programmed killers who unlike the Sith troopers have been designed to kill and bear none of the weaknesses and imperfections of a biological - and all of the strengths. Granted they are well armed, but the HKs are better armed. The Sith have anti-droid weapons, the HKs have anti-Force sensitive weapons and weapons that can kill with a single shot. The commandos have personal energy shields, the HKs have durasteel plating on top of energy shields. The commandos have melee weapons, the HKs have flamethrowers and carbonite projectors, not to mention solid fists of steel.
HK units have no proficiency with hand to hand combat, so they would be reliant on flamethrowers and carbonite projectors (against which the Sith can activate thermal or energy shields) while the Sith use vibroblades and lightsabers against them.

Of course, that would happen only after the majority of the HK droids have been gunned down trying to fight their way into the Academy. A lethal barrage of disruptors and ion blasts would be waiting for them as soon as they tried to sneak in and were given away by their footprints/disturbing the powder thrown down when the first shots are heard outside. Only after the fire fight has broken down into a chaotic melee would we see any hand to hand fighting.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The same applies for the Sith, they have the Force, lightsabers and stealth generators granted. But the HKs have anti-stealth tech, weapons that bypass lightsabers and weapons that break Force concentration. Not to mention the fact the Sith have to get in close first, and the HKs are trained to kill Force sensitives specifically. I'm not saying the HKs will win, but they will do significant damage.
Again, you're assessing the strengths of the HK units in a vacuum, against individual components of the combined Sith defensive force. The Sith don't have to get in close at all, they'll be perfectly content to blast away from fortified positions, firing into the doorways and corridors the HKs are trying to get through. The anti-stealth tech won't help at all because the Sith aren't going to bother with stealth here, they'll just shoot the HKs to pieces. The force sensitives will be fighting alongside well armed troops with heavy weapons, and their combined efforts will crush the invaders.

Furthermore, you're really misunderstanding the strengths of the HK units. They're not assault drones. They are infiltrators and assassins, not battle droids. They're competent when it comes to killing, and properly armed they can certainly do damage, but in a heavy assault they're just not going to stand up against disruptors and ion weapons raining down on them.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And again, your idea of the MSG is purely based on assumptions, while I have thin evidence, but evidence nonetheless. Firstly, its logical to bury the device underground, to ensure it wasn't immediately destroyed once activated. (I'm sure in the Star Wars era they could activate the device remotely, they can after all blow up planets.) And secondly the Remote did not interact with it, let me stress that it did not access it. It somehow redirected power from crashed ships to the device, and had it reactivated remotely. Just like Meetra did years ago. I doubt you actually have to go to a terminal to activate it, else it wouldn't have been possible to activate it at the Battle of Malachor V.
This is borderline magical thinking. Just because something can be fired remotely doesn't mean its always ready to be used. It's obvious that the remote had to reconfigure the MSG to fire again, so it's not a "baseless assumption" that he interacted with it, it's just rational thinking. The MSG was triggered the first time because Bao-Dur set it up, programmed it, and then left with the remote detonator so he could fire it from a distance. But now it's been fired, and needs to be reconfigured and wired up to the ships reactor cores, which obviously it wasn't connected with in the first place. Some manual interaction had to take place, to think otherwise is to demonstrate a complete ignorance of power systems. So while the device may be underground, it still needs to be accessed in some way. So the area near it is the site of the ambush, or the reactors of the ships, etc.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Hooray, he goes and has an oil baths and resumes his usual activity i.e. capturing freighters above Nar Shaddaa. All Traya has to do is smuggle some assassins onto one of the those vehicles, or better yet, herself, have it captured and kill G0-T0. Checkmate.
It might be advantageous to let the droids succeed in activating the MSG, but only after they've been delayed by the strike force to allow the bulk of the Academy's defenders to withdraw, leaving only a skeleton force fighting the HK-50s attacking the Academy. Since there will be no survivors in G0-T0's force, no one will be around to see the Sith forces sneak away from the planet. Any follow up scouts G0-T0 sends to confirm the mission's success will find an empty system and a dead planet, following a brutal fight on the planet itself.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.11.2013 , 01:29 PM | #288
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
A few of problems here:

As far as I'm aware, Interdictors do not actually have missile launchers. See here. And even if they did the tactic employed by Admiral Trench is not a well known one. He was a military genius and had personal experience with stealthed vessels, which allowed him to develop a tactic to counter them. He did not read this in a book. And given the condition of Traya's Fleet - half dead. I doubt there are many genius tacticians left over from the Jedi Civil War who are aware of this tactic.
ADM Trench was brilliant for figuring out a tactic to use against stealth vessels in an era where they were almost completely unheard of. As you so adroitly pointed out, stealth technology is much more common due to the abundance of stygium crystals. So it stands to reason that there would exist tactics to counter stealth vessels during the Old Republic Era. Interdictors may not have missile launchers as part of their base complement, but Centurion-class warships have torpedo bays and could easily be loaded with magnetic seeking missiles. And since Traya would expect a stealthy attack from G0-T0, not a fleet to fleet battle, it would make sense to prep the fleet to hunt and destroy cloaked vessels. While G0-T0 is building and equipping his ships with expensive, delicate cloaking devices and researching the MSG/convincing Bao-Dur to help him, the Sith can make a quick stop at Czerka and stock up on seeking missiles and launchers.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
G0-T0's ships, if he is smart, will not have any organics on them - just droids. In such destruction, the likelihood of finding an intact memory core is small. Traya does not actually know were the MSG is seeing as the only person who has any knowledge on it is Bao-Dur himself. They certainly won't be aware that the Republic ship engine cores are key components to its reactivation.
It's debatable about the chances of finding a memory core, because missiles don't blow up a warship completely. They will detonate when they reach a certain proximity and breach the hull/destroy the engine power plant, causing the ship to break apart or explode. So any droids inside could easily end up adrift in space, or at least major components of them.

Also, he doesn't know that organics can be sensed through the Force because he doesn't understand the Force, so he would likely send along all of his best troops to ensure the success of the attack on the MSG and Trayus Academy.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.11.2013 , 02:28 PM | #289
I think regardless of this Traya finally has a game plan:

Allow G0-T0 to invade Malachor V and destroy it, leading him to believe Traya to be dead. Wait until G0-T0 resumes normal activities and sneak aboard a freighter and wait for G0-T0 to hijack it, then sneak aboard the ship and kill G0-T0. Pretty simply TBH.

However there is a single flaw

G0-T0 needs to be completely convinced that Traya is dead, else he won't resume usual business until he is absolutely sure she is dead. And Kaggath rules state that Traya cannot wait G0-T0 out. If G0-T0's ships are pulled out of hyperspace and manage to escape, G0-T0 will no doubt calculate the possibility of Traya deciding to leave the planet. He may not consider it a high possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.

Cutting out Interdiction completely would help resolve this, however it would also remove any means of Traya knowing of an attack on Malachor V. Yes when the fleet arrives she could evacuate then, but even if the droids don't survive the MSG they will still be hooked up to G0-T0's central computer at all times, and probe droids will likely be deployed across and around the planet to ensure any escapes are detected.

So its not an entirely full-proof plan, and because of that the alternative has to be considered: what if G0-T0 gets wise to Traya's escape and tracks her to Korriban? You could implement Kulvak's strategy here... lose a series of battles and make it look like a complete defeat. Then go on the offense of implement the stealth plan above. There is major flaw with that plan however, its based on the assumption that G0-T0 will be hijacking freighters when he's in an all out war with Traya which had suddenly turned sour. And I expect he would have calculated the possibility of Traya having forces board and hijacked vehicle. To be sure he might just stick and decoy on his yacht and operate from elsewhere on the moon.

If there are any G0-T0 supporters still out there I'd ask them to critique this plan. I've anaylsed all the problems I can but there are likely more.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.11.2013 , 02:42 PM | #290
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
The attack on the factory will be done, again, with stealth, so much so that by the time he takes notice, Traya has his own droids and her Sith destroying his vessel and if need be, she can have her remaining fleet blockade the planet.
If you've played the Restored Content Mod that has the Droid Factory in it, you'd know that the tactic you are suggesting wouldn't work.


The two doors you need to get through are magneticly sealed, in order to get them open you have to get to the generator controls.

The problem with doing so, is that you have to disable a force field (and there are three different hallways, each with a forcefield). Running around trying to force a bunch of Force fields is not going to allow you to maintain your stealth attack, because they will know you are there.

To make matters worse for your forces, that doesn't even give you access to the factory yet. That's what the magnetically sealed doors lead to, which is even deeper underground than this basement level.

So with stealth being compromised before one even gets into the factory, the HKs would have plenty of time to deploy a bunch of mines, set up traps, and prepare to initiate assassination proticols...

The reason HK 47 did so well in infiltrating the factory was because he was also an HK unit and not a meatbag.