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An in-depth look at: Malak


Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 11:56 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
In death? Probably. In life? Heck no. His accomplishments speak for themselves, but they probably wouldn't have happened without Bane. Of course we shouldn't give Bane the credit of creating and fulfilling the Grand Plan, but he does get the credit for creating the oppurtunity (and that solidifies his legacy).

Darth Sidious left his mark on the galaxy, not only in his Galactic Empire, but also his teachings. Particularly in his trilogy of books titled 'The Dark Side Compendium'. In these books he discusses controlling anger to unleash the full power of the Dark Side, using the weak to gain power, as well as using Sith arts to create terrifying monsters. He also made other writings where he discusses choosing apprentices.

Not to mention being the gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron. So he did leave teachings behind.

Edit: And before you ask, the threads on Sidious' teachings are in the works.
I see, interesting. There is one very important thing he failed to do however, train another worthy apprentice. If he had done so the Galactic Empire may never have fallen. Think about it, first of all Sidious would never have got thrown into the pit and if he did die with the Death Star's destruction, his apprentice (who would have likely been aboard the Executor - not going to the Death Star to sort out family issues) would have simply taken his place.

P.S. Funny that, I was just about to ask!

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 12:06 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I see, interesting. There is one very important thing he failed to do however, train another worthy apprentice. If he had done so the Galactic Empire may never have fallen. Think about it, first of all Sidious would never have got thrown into the pit and if he did die with the Death Star's destruction, his apprentice (who would have likely been aboard the Executor - not going to the Death Star to sort out family issues) would have simply taken his place.

P.S. Funny that, I was just about to ask!
He probably should have found a new apprentice, but he felt that Vader had not lived out his usefullness. As noted:

Quote:
Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the oppurtunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.
- The Creation of Monsters

Quote:
Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted so long.
- the Telos Holocron

As we see here, Sidious did not care if Vader could kill him. He had put forth plans to make himself immortal. Vader's betrayal was inconsequential in his mind. It was his intention to never really need an apprentice, just someone strong enough to carry out his wishes, which he notes in his records on finding apprentices.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.23.2013 , 12:57 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
He probably should have found a new apprentice, but he felt that Vader had not lived out his usefullness. As noted:

- The Creation of Monsters

- the Telos Holocron

As we see here, Sidious did not care if Vader could kill him. He had put forth plans to make himself immortal. Vader's betrayal was inconsequential in his mind. It was his intention to never really need an apprentice, just someone strong enough to carry out his wishes, which he notes in his records on finding apprentices.
He wanted Anakin to be that one that would succeed him, but he never reached his potential. Although this sheds a new light showing that after Anakin failed to be a successor to him, he deemed there would be no one else who could succeed him.

Galen only had the potential to be as powerful as Sidious, not stronger, and by the time he turned Luke as you said he had already put his plans for immortality into action.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.23.2013 , 02:22 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.
Darth Bane was dedicated to destroying the Jedi Order. He had the discipline to put into action a plan he knew would not come to fruition for a long time, but did his successors have the same dedication? In many ways, Bane was unlike most Sith. He sacrificed his personal ambition for power in his lifetime, instead dedicating himself to strengthen future Sith. Most Sith are motivated primarily by a selfish desire for power in their own lifetime (or for immortal life, be it through holocrons, sith alchemy, etc.) and so they keep grasping for more until they overreach and get killed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
He probably should have found a new apprentice, but he felt that Vader had not lived out his usefullness. As noted:

As we see here, Sidious did not care if Vader could kill him. He had put forth plans to make himself immortal. Vader's betrayal was inconsequential in his mind. It was his intention to never really need an apprentice, just someone strong enough to carry out his wishes, which he notes in his records on finding apprentices.
This is evidence that Sidious had deviated far from Bane's vision of the Sith. Ultimately, the Rule of Two was probably very flawed, but it did allow the Sith to remain hidden. At the time of the Seventh Battle of Ruusan, it was clear that the Sith had been outfought by the Jedi, and were on the brink of extermination. To preserve the Sith, Bane essentially retreated and swore to remain in hiding and rather than fight the Jedi openly, as had been done in the past, to infiltrate and sabotage them through manipulation and treachery.

Unfortunately, the Rule of Two required every Sith Lord to practice a selfless devotion that I doubt many were capable of. It required them to pass on all their knowledge to their apprentice, and to challenge them to become stronger than the Master. This is far more similar to how Jedi are trained than Sith. The Jedi will patiently teach their apprentices everything they know, and it is every teacher's ambition to see their student go on to greater things.

The Sith are selfish, and focused on accumulating personal power. Without exception, almost every Sith Lord kept secrets from his apprentice, in order to give him an advantage. Since the way of the Sith is to betray those you can, and to kill whoever opposes you, most Masters are going to be hesitant to give away all the cards to their apprentices. By Sidious' time, it seems that the Sith have become preoccupied with seeking immortality, rather than strengthening their apprentice as much as possible.

They are still carrying out a plan to bring down the Jedi, but it is done through subterfuge and manipulation, rather than raw power. Sidious kills Plagueis in his sleep, as I'm sure many apprentices had before. Malak opportunistically fired on Revan's ship when he was distracted, Darth Vader threw Sidious down an exhaust shaft in a surprise betrayal, etc. The Sith Master is usually defeated not because he selflessly teaches his apprentice everything he knows and guides the apprentice to surpass him. Quite the opposite, they are usually scheming to stay in power and keep their apprentice just weak enough to not be a threat, and are unexpectedly betrayed and killed.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
02.23.2013 , 03:18 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I see, interesting. There is one very important thing he failed to do however,
Not just that, but he also failed to learn from other peoples mistakes...
He killed his master in his sleep when he was drunk. You think he'd learn and keep his guard up
*******

In all seriousness though, Sidious was far too overconfident, as Aubere said, he saw himself as Immortal, not needing anyone to Succeed him as he was never going to die...
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from… save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 03:27 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Not just that, but he also failed to learn from other peoples mistakes...
He killed his master in his sleep when he was drunk. You think he'd learn and keep his guard up
*******

In all seriousness though, Sidious was far too overconfident, as Aubere said, he saw himself as Immortal, not needing anyone to Succeed him as he was never going to die...
I think he had good reason to be overconfident. He was basically immortal and he was the culmination of Dark Side teachings. He had defeated the Jedi Order and established an Empire that could not survive without him, basically making himself the Empire. In his mind, he was invincible.

But he should have kept his guard up anyway. The downfall of most Sith it seems.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
02.23.2013 , 03:30 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The downfall of most Sith it seems.
Indeed, Plagueis and Revan (twice) were among many...
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from… save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 03:41 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Indeed, Plagueis and Revan (twice) were among many...
The number of Sith that have been killed due to overconfidence is too great to count. Even your average Sith lackey gets killed because of it.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 04:32 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Darth Bane was dedicated to destroying the Jedi Order. He had the discipline to put into action a plan he knew would not come to fruition for a long time, but did his successors have the same dedication? In many ways, Bane was unlike most Sith. He sacrificed his personal ambition for power in his lifetime, instead dedicating himself to strengthen future Sith. Most Sith are motivated primarily by a selfish desire for power in their own lifetime (or for immortal life, be it through holocrons, sith alchemy, etc.) and so they keep grasping for more until they overreach and get killed.
Lumiya said something about sacrifice in terms of Sith teachings, and to be Sith you must make great sacrifices. I stumbled upon it a while ago and found it really interesting - it put a whole different perspective on what it meant to be Sith - but for the life of me I can't find it again!

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 04:51 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Lumiya said something about sacrifice in terms of Sith teachings, and to be Sith you must make great sacrifices. I stumbled upon it a while ago and found it really interesting - it put a whole different perspective on what it meant to be Sith - but for the life of me I can't find it again!
I believe it was said in Sacrifice, but I could be wrong.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus