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An in-depth look at: Malak


Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.22.2013 , 07:16 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
That's called stubborn idiocy, if he had admitted his defeat he could have done something for the Sith e.g. what Freedon Nadd did, impart his knowledge to a worthy successor. But he was too absorbed in his lust personal power to see the bigger picture. That's why he failed in life and that's why he failed in death - Bane would not have been impressed. Bane being a real Sith Lord, he realised is own existence was merely a component in a greater design, as such he actually achieved something. What did Kun achieve? Nada.
Of course, few Sith Lords achieve very much at all. But that's because all they try to do is wage war. Which they inevitably fail at. Bane actually saw that war with the Jedi was bound for failure. So by putting forth the Rule of Two, he actually achieved something greater than past Sith Lords.

But that depends on what one could consider 'accomplishments'.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 06:47 AM | #22
I would define an 'accomplishment' as achieving something other than internal power, and leaving some sort of lasting legacy on the galaxy - in this case a lasting legacy for the Sith. Kun did none of these because he was too unwilling to accept defeat and too eager to gather internal power for only himself. Notice how throughout the Great Sith War Kun spent most of his time on Yavin 4 studying the darkside.

Many Sith do infact accomplish something in their lifetime, and do not have those accomplishments swept away. The Sith of ancient times established a rich and powerful Sith Empire that stood for many years. And the last of them, Sadow, preserved himself on Yavin 4 so years later he might pass on his knowledge and continue the Sith and its Empire - that person was Freedon Nadd, who later did the same with Kun.

Darth Revan turned from the dark side and achieved much more in the light (also in the non-canon dark side ending, he achieves a Galactic Sith Empire), and even as a Sith he left a lasting legacy through his holocron and a broken Republic preyed on by the Triumvirate - did Kun ever even create a holocron? Darth Traya accomplished the complete annihilation of the Jedi, and paved way for a new Order. Her apprentices achieved nothing, as she often stated - although Nihilus did pass on his teachings via holocron.

The Members of the New Sith Empire all achieved much to strengthen their Empire which lasted for over 1000 years - and now as they wage war with the Sith they accomplish even more. The Sith to come were not as impressive, hence why Bane had them swept aside. Although Ruin began the New Sith Wars, Darzu left a holocron and Kaan's order birthed Darth Bane. And then the new Order of the Sith Lords led to the eventual realisation of the Grand Plan. Lumiya continued the line of the Sith and Darth Krayt established a galaxy-spanning Sith Empire.

So in fact many, if not most Sith achieved something in their lifetime and had a lasting legacy in death. Kun had neither of these, he waged a failed crusade against the Republic which failed even to create any form of lasting Sith territory, and in death he refused to pass his teachings on to another and instead created a personal cult (strikes of a self-centered egoistical mind) and then terrorized Luke's Praxeum until he was finally put down. I'm sure that if Traya ever confronted Kun she would say something along the lines of : 'To have fallen so far and learned nothing, that is your failure.'

Also:

  • Nadd did something entirely different to Kun, he imparted his knowledge of the darkside to Kun in order to continue the legacy of the Sith, Kun merely manipulated Kyp Durron into becoming his personal weapon against the galaxy, going on a rampage throughout the galaxy causing as much destruction as he could, because Kun hungered for pain and destruction. I doubt he had little or any care for the continuation of the Sith. The fact that he promised him power and taught him nothing is testament to this.

  • 'Lots of Jedi around at that time' is a rather petty excuse for not leaving a legacy, especially as he managed to live on as a Sith spirit. You'll find that there were always many Jedi around, throughout the course of galactic history. And yet still all the Sith I listed above accomplished something and left a legacy.

  • Did Kun achieve more than Malak did? I'm not saying he did, in fact their personalities were much the same so its no wonder they both achieved relatively little. All I'm saying is Malak accepted his defeat. But Kun refused too which is why he never left a legacy, because he only wanted power for himself.

You'll find that the only thing Kun achieved, all indadvertedly, was the near extinction of the Massassi race and the introduction of the double-bladed lightsaber to the wider galaxy. He achieved nothing for the Sith.

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.23.2013 , 09:36 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I would define an 'accomplishment' as achieving something other than internal power, and leaving some sort of lasting legacy on the galaxy - in this case a lasting legacy for the Sith. Kun did none of these because he was too unwilling to accept defeat and too eager to gather internal power for only himself. Notice how throughout the Great Sith War Kun spent most of his time on Yavin 4 studying the darkside.

Many Sith do infact accomplish something in their lifetime, and do not have those accomplishments swept away. The Sith of ancient times established a rich and powerful Sith Empire that stood for many years. And the last of them, Sadow, preserved himself on Yavin 4 so years later he might pass on his knowledge and continue the Sith and its Empire - that person was Freedon Nadd, who later did the same with Kun.

Darth Revan turned from the dark side and achieved much more in the light (also in the non-canon dark side ending, he achieves a Galactic Sith Empire), and even as a Sith he left a lasting legacy through his holocron and a broken Republic preyed on by the Triumvirate - did Kun ever even create a holocron? Darth Traya accomplished the complete annihilation of the Jedi, and paved way for a new Order. Her apprentices achieved nothing, as she often stated - although Nihilus did pass on his teachings via holocron.

The Members of the New Sith Empire all achieved much to strengthen their Empire which lasted for over 1000 years - and now as they wage war with the Sith they accomplish even more. The Sith to come were not as impressive, hence why Bane had the swept aside. Although Ruin began the New Sith Wars, Darzu left a holocron and Kaan's order birthed Darth Bane. And then the new Order of the Sith Lords led to the eventual realisation of the Grand Plan. Lumiya continued the line of the Sith and Darth Krayt established a galaxy-spanning Sith Empire.

So in fact many, if not most Sith achieved something in their lifetime and had a lasting legacy in death. Kun had neither of these, he waged a failed crusade against the Republic which failed even to create any form of lasting Sith territory, and in death he refused to pass his teachings on to another and instead created a personal cult (strikes of a self-centered egoistical mind) and then terrorized Luke's Praxeum until he was finally put down. I'm sure that if Traya ever confronted Kun she would say something along the lines of : 'To have fallen so far and learned nothing, that is your failure.'

Also:

  • Nadd did something entirely different to Kun, he imparted his knowledge of the darkside to Kun in order to continue the legacy of the Sith, Kun merely manipulated Kyp Durron into becoming his personal weapon against the galaxy, going on a rampage throughout the galaxy causing as much destruction as he could, because Kun hungered for pain and destruction. I doubt he had little or any care for the continuation of the Sith. The fact that he promised him power and taught him nothing is testament to this.

  • 'Lots of Jedi around at that time' is a rather petty excuse for not leaving a legacy, especially as he managed to live on as a Sith spirit. You'll find that there were always many Jedi around, throughout the course of galactic history. And yet still all the Sith I listed above accomplished something and left a legacy.

  • Did Kun achieve more than Malak did? I'm not saying he did, in fact their personalities were much the same so its no wonder they both achieved relatively little. All I'm saying is Malak accepted his defeat. But Kun refused too which is why he never left a legacy, because he only wanted power for himself.

You'll find that the only thing Kun achieved, all indadvertedly, was the near extinction of the Massassi race and the introduction of the double-bladed lightsaber to the wider galaxy. He achieved nothing for the Sith.
Agree with all of this except Revan doing more as a jedi with his legacy, since his teachings via holocron as a sith are the core of what Bane used to create the Rule of Two. Without them there would be no Rule of Two.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 09:45 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
Agree with all of this except Revan doing more as a jedi with his legacy, since his teachings via holocron as a sith are the core of what Bane used to create the Rule of Two. Without them there would be no Rule of Two.
That is true. But then again that was more his legacy in death, in life he his saved the Republic from destruction at the hands of the Sith twice. But yes, he new Sith philosophy was a major contribution to the Sith Order and its eventual triumph over the Jedi.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 11:13 AM | #25
Beni, that's a good point about accomplishments, and I agree with you. Except for one thing.

Exar Kun did leave a lasting impression on the galaxy by killing Odan-Urr and destroying the Great Library. Not as great as the Rule of Two (for obvious reasons) or creating a mighty, long-lived Sith Empire, but it was a major setback for the Jedi Order.

Of course it didn't last long as most of the knowledge within the Library was eventually 'rediscovered/reinvented.'
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 11:37 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Beni, that's a good point about accomplishments, and I agree with you. Except for one thing.

Exar Kun did leave a lasting impression on the galaxy by killing Odan-Urr and destroying the Great Library. Not as great as the Rule of Two (for obvious reasons) or creating a mighty, long-lived Sith Empire, but it was a major setback for the Jedi Order.

Of course it didn't last long as most of the knowledge within the Library was eventually 'rediscovered/reinvented.'
Yes I suppose so, the swathe of chaos and violence he carried through the universe had damaging effects on the Jedi Order and the Republic. But in the end that only puts him on par, in terms of accomplishment, with the likes of Sion, Nihilus, Desolous, Kaan and yes, Darth Malak. They all reaped destruction on the galaxy that the galaxy eventually recovered from, but in the end they were nothing.

In my books, he is a failure.

And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.23.2013 , 11:43 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Yes I suppose so, the swathe of chaos and violence he carried through the universe had damaging effects on the Jedi Order and the Republic. But in the end that only puts him on par, in terms of accomplishment, with the likes of Sion, Nihilus, Desolous, Kaan and yes, Darth Malak. They all reaped destruction on the galaxy that the galaxy eventually recovered from, but in the end they were nothing.

In my books, he is a failure.

And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.
Didnt Sidious create the book of sith? And I agree sort of with Bane in terms of accomplishments, he is the true Sithari and greatest of all Revanites.

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.23.2013 , 11:48 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Yes I suppose so, the swathe of chaos and violence he carried through the universe had damaging effects on the Jedi Order and the Republic. But in the end that only puts him on par, in terms of accomplishment, with the likes of Sion, Nihilus, Desolous, Kaan and yes, Darth Malak. They all reaped destruction on the galaxy that the galaxy eventually recovered from, but in the end they were nothing.

In my books, he is a failure.

And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.
I think Sidious only became that warped in his own power because he could never find a suitable apprentice to surpass him in power. And when he did they either could not be turned (Galen Marek), were broken beyond repair (Darth Vader), or could be turned and then redeemed (Luke Skywalker).

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 11:48 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.
In death? Probably. In life? Heck no. His accomplishments speak for themselves, but they probably wouldn't have happened without Bane. Of course we shouldn't give Bane the credit of creating and fulfilling the Grand Plan, but he does get the credit for creating the oppurtunity (and that solidifies his legacy).

Darth Sidious left his mark on the galaxy, not only in his Galactic Empire, but also his teachings. Particularly in his trilogy of books titled 'The Dark Side Compendium'. In these books he discusses controlling anger to unleash the full power of the Dark Side, using the weak to gain power, as well as using Sith arts to create terrifying monsters. He also made other writings where he discusses choosing apprentices.

Not to mention being the gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron. So he did leave teachings behind.

Edit: And before you ask, the threads on Sidious' teachings are in the works.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 11:51 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
I think Sidious only became that warped in his own power because he could never find a suitable apprentice to surpass him in power. And when he did they either could not be turned (Galen Marek), were broken beyond repair (Darth Vader), or could be turned and then redeemed (Luke Skywalker).
That is true, he was almost self defeating it that respect. Although I believe he should have dispatched Vader earlier on. And perhaps made a better attempt to turn Jedi e.g. don't blast them with lightning just because they say 'no' first time.

I mean consider the effort he put into converting Anakin, similar tactics could have been used with Skywalker and Marek.