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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
02.25.2013 , 10:32 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
Like i said Exar Kun's power is timeless, his skill with the blade was so advanced in his time that he beat the jedi's greatest masters at the time, easily. His former master Vodo Baas who was considered the greatest saber duelist of the jedi at the time, was being toyed with throughout his entire duel with Kun. The only PT jedi i see beating Kun would have to be Mace Windu or Yoda, no one else.

Blademaster Kas'im who defeated him again? Darth Bane, the weakest of his Banite line and that was before he reached his prime in power or even became Darth Bane as well. The Brotherhood of Darkness was considered an all time low for sith orders in terms of power. They were so weak that they were unsalvageable and Bane had to destroy them in order to rebuild sith strengh. Sure he may have mastered the 7 forms, but to what degree did he master them? And how well could he implement them?

Kit Fitso mastered Shii-cho to the point where it became viable in terms of overall combat. Also saber skills arent his main focus, he is a consular after all. But he did last longer against Sidious then Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin who specialized and were considered masters in saber combat. Fitso was even able to parry a few blows. I admit Kas'im does look better than Cin Drallig on paper. But Kas'im was great in the weakest sith order to date, and he wasnt even the most powerful in that order to boot.

I enjoy that point on Kas'im, it really makes you think about things although my knowledge on Drallig outside of lightsaber mastery and duel with Vader is a bit vague.
I see what you are saying there - but in a discussion that have a lot of opinions in them, any actual facts we do have should be pertinent....

Fact: Cin drallig master of 6 lightsaber Forms - (Working knowledge but not mastery of Juyo)
Fact: Blademaster Ka'sim master of All 7 styles and individual Specialist in Duel-wield Ataru

it's just frustrating at times - that when we actually do have something to compare - it can get ignored if it doesn't quite fit in with people's own personal Opinions.....(not saying you )

I wasn't really talking about Ka'sim's overall power - but his accomplishments with Lightsaber Mastery (knowledge so to speak) - Bane did have to resort to the force to beat him as Bane was being beaten in the actual lightsaber combat itself.....(perhaps Ka'sim realised that he was not the most powerful of the force users so concentrated on Blade skills to give him some kind of edge - as may well be the case with many that become Blademasters - powerful in the force but not THE most powerful in their orders....)


It is hard to judge Mastery - why should Ka'sim's be more invalid than anyone else's? - there was no questioning of his mastery in the books he was flat out stated to be a Master....and he was skilled in the usage of double bladed and duel-wielding sabers so he does demonstrate a pretty complete overall skillset

Would Musashi not be considered a great sword master in this day and age because he was around hundreds of years ago?

Bane became more powerful but became a bit sloppier with the saber due to the protection of the Orbalisks and being able to fight more recklessly making errors that he wouldn't normally make -
Ka'sim seems like the type that was very focused on his blade skills and had he lived would have probably kept improving

I think the Brotherhood may have been somewhat weak in its overall structure and orgainisation, however it's defeat was in large part to betrayal - I'm not sure how weak they were in actual personal power (for instance that Lord Kaan Battle Meditation was pretty impressive - how much PT jedi did you see doing something like that - would have sure helped on Geonosis huh? - Bastilla Shan of thousands of years ago may have been handy to have around then.....) and Bane himself certainly did not consider Lord Kaan weak at all....
The Brotherhood was not Bane's own personal vision of how the Sith should be so he plotted their downfall....

But perhaps the Brotherhood lost an overall path and focus to the Sith vision....... and you could definitely level similar critisism to the PT Jedi - they lost to plotting/betrayal and they lost worse than ANY Jedi order in the history of the Jedi - at no other point in history did the Sith gain such a complete dominance of the entire Galaxy than after beating the PT jedi.....
We all agree that Grandmaster Yoda was one of the most powerful ever - should I dismiss him out of hand as overrated now because his Jedi order got beaten so completely?
Sometimes you have to take circumstance into account the same way and perhaps re-evaluate things and consider that some the individuals in Brotherhood could actually be pretty damn good.....

As I said before - just the admittance that Kun is up there even against the most Powerful Jedi of the PT kind of leaves the door open now - and it can no longer be considered a hard and fast Rule that the PT jedi would be greater than every individual that came before it......

And even with the Banite line it is not without its flaws - the transition can sometimes be a knife edge - the fight between Bane and Zannah could have gone either way - we know Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep.....so victory is not necessarily proof of greater mastery in all areas - because even with this rule sometimes you may be forced to strike at the most opportune moment lest you get killed or replaced - sometimes your hand gets forced earlier than you might want to - or before everything gets passed on - ( when they were killed....Bane was Still superior to Zannah in lightsaber Combat and Plagueis was still Greater than Sidious at midichlorian manipulation) - so even against other Banite Sith I wouldn't dismiss Bane completely out of hand.
The Student had to overcome their own master - so they probably directed their efforts into focusing on that particular Master's flaws - it is possible that Bane may have had the skillset to beat some of the masters that came after him - as we know fights are not ABC logic.....(ie. Obi wan - Dooku- Anakin)

Sorry for going on and on - I just want to make people at least question things and evaluate things on individual circumstance and merit before accepting these types of hard and fast rules......
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.25.2013 , 11:05 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm sorry to burst your bubble and your well constructed argument (flawed as it is), but the Jedi Masters we see in the Prequels are simply superior to their predecessors. But that isn't to say that the OR Jedi are weak, it's just that the PT Jedi are on another level. Just as the TOR Jedi are on a higher level to the JCW Jedi. It's the natural progression of time and the advancement of teachings.

You are extrapolating quite a bit there. Nothing suggests that the TOR Jedi are a tier above the JCW Jedi. And let's be serious, you're telling me that in the Star Wars galaxy, a place where we see only marginal technological development over the course of about 20,000 years that time plays such a powerful role in the advancement of the Jedi?

That just runs against the entire theme that we see connecting the different eras of technology. The only argument that favors the absolute superiority of the PT Jedi over all others is that a thousand years of peace after the Ruusan Reformations have made them impossibly skilled and powerful, both with lightsabers and the Force.

The foremost argument supporting this theory is that the respective leaders of the Jedi and Sith, Yoda and Sidious, are the most powerful beings to grace the galaxy ever, until Luke Skywalker apparently becomes some kind of Force God or something. Every argument I've seen that supports Yoda/Sidious' power is that they were the only ones able to fight each other. It's hopelessly circular logic, saying that Yoda was powerful because he could compete with Sidious, but Sidious was powerful because he could thrash Yoda, etc etc.

All of the god-like powers ascribed the Sidious were developed in the Post-RotJ EU, so there is no evidence that he had those powers when he fought Yoda. When they fight, we see them throwing stuff at each other and tossing around some force lightning. This is nothing that hasn't been done before, by Jedi in by-gone eras battling Sith Lords.

Yes, George Lucas says they're the strongest in their Orders. He also says that he wishes the entire Post-RotJ EU hadn't happened, and that he doesn't approve of it. So the majority of Sidious' powers don't jive with Lucas' vision. Let's leave George Lucas out of this for now and strictly consider what we can see and observe within the Star Wars universe.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
And yet, the actual canon proves you wrong. Let's take the Grand Master of the TOR Order (Satele Shan), and pit her against the Grand Master of the PT Order (Yoda). Not only is it G-canon that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi Pre-Luke, but his accolades prove him as such. He mastered the seven forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent. He could lift large starships like an X-Wing, mastered the use of Force Push and Force Wave to the extreme, could use Battle Meditation, could utilize Farsight to a similar degree as Darth Sidious, and could dissipate Force Lightning with his bare hands, even the Force lightning of Darth Sidious (who had the most powerful Force lightning ever). And finally, he was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

Satele has similar accolades and she is quite powerful, however, Yoda has proven himself to be her superior.

There is an almost absurd level of information on every minor character to ever appear onscreen in the Star Wars films. To list specific accomplishments and name names of different Jedi in each era is an illogical comparison because exponentially more time has been devoted to examining every second of the PT Era, while the OR Era is still a developing part of the canon. You say that Satele and Yoda have similar accolades, but Yoda has "proven himself to be her superior".

When did he prove this? Did they have a duel, or competition with the Force? A battle of wits, perhaps?

The truth is that they never met. They lived in different eras and a direct comparison is difficult at best. The only way to consider possibilities is to analyze the circumstances surrounding the Jedi Order when they each lived and attempt to draw conclusions from there.

My premise is quite simple:
Jedi who routinely fought in lightsaber battles have superior dueling skills to those who did not.

An outgrowth of this premise is that the PT Jedi, who rarely saw lightsaber combat, were not as experienced in this style of combat as Jedi who lived in Eras where it was common. Please try not to see this as "PT vs. OR" but rather as an analysis of the ebb and flow of combat experience within the Jedi Order from its inception to extinction. So the "myth" that exists is that the PT Jedi were these demi-gods of dueling, who would trounce anyone from any other time period in melee combat.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
If anything it is the latter, because forms would logically naturally improve and be refined over time - another point in favour for the PT Order.
The lightsaber forms that the Jedi learn in the PT Era are referred to as the "classic" forms. Not the 'revised' forms, or the 'modern forms'. The classic forms. They learn almost exactly the same lightsaber techniques as the OR Jedi do.

The only exception to this is Mace Windu developing Vapaad. I applaud Master Windu for his efforts, but he only taught one student his new form before he died. Hardly revolutionizing lightsaber techniques for the order as a whole, don't you say?

You say I left out several points that contradicted my argument, but really you only listed a single exception, which is Yoda's case. But he's nine hundred years old. I imagine that during his ridiculously long life, he'd be able to acquire enough experience to become formidable with a lightsaber. However, his case really is exceptional. What I'm considering are the humanoid races with measurable lifespans, who will experience "generations" in a meaningful sense.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Ataru was recommended for use by Jedi with the ability to enhance their speed and stamina with the Force.[/I] ~ Wookieepedia

It may have deficiencies, but you cannot nullify it as a redundant Form only usable in as a last resort.
Don't listen to me, listen to Grand Master Skywalker:
"This style of fighting was taught to me by Master Yoda. In most cases, you will not use it as a first resort, but you'll find it often works as a last resort."
~Luke Skywalker to two students
"This form was also considered not as effective for prolonged combat, as the nature of Ataru could greatly tax the body."
"Ataru practitioners were advised to withdraw if they were unable to win after a devastating burst of Ataru attacks
" ~Wookiepedia
So, yes, Ataru is best for rapidly finishing a duel. And the supposed "greatest duelist ever" in the Jedi Order advises using it as a last resort.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Firstly, Ventessel, you are severly downplaying the effectiveness of Soresu. Given that it was one of the most popular forms of the Jedi Order of all eras (it favored passivity and was very much in correlation with the Jedi Code), it must have had several advantages in lightsaber battle

Darth Zannah - she was trained in Soresu to make up for her slight form and with it confronted and defeated many powerful adversaries, including Bane himself.
I am not downplaying Soresu, only pointing out its limitations in offensive applications, which are what finish duels.
I will quote Zannah's Wookiepedia page extensively:
"The Form III tenets of patience and cunning that Zannah learned from Bane[3] also allowed her to easily defeat Set Harth's mastery of the fourth lightsaber combat form, Ataru. While dueling Harth in his mansion, Zannah capitalized on his mistakes, which ultimately resulted from Harth's own arrogance and impatience; this allowed her to attack him with a spell of insanity"
"Without the application of her sorcery, however, Zannah would have eventually fallen to Xaj's superior physical strength"
"During her confrontation with Bane in the Stone Prison, she successfully cornered him multiple times, but despite the Dark Lord's lack of a weapon, she was unable to kill him. Later, during her final duel with Darth Bane, her Master overwhelmed her defenses with his powerful attacks, and she was forced to resort to her sorcery to defeat him"
What I'm saying is that Soresu only works in combination with another form. Even Obi-Wan used Ataru's offensive aspects to augment his Soresu. Arguably, his move that finished Darth Vader on Mustafar was an outgrowth of Makashi's elaborate parries and attacks of opportunity.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Not to mention that deflecting blaster bolts does bear similarities to deflecting lightsabers e.g. the are both fast and accurate attacks which require precise and equally rapid responses. Defense tends to have a universal aspect to it e.g. a shield can defend against arrows and well as swords.
Naturally, the PT Era Jedi were likely excellent practitioners of Soresu, and the defensive applications will have some overlap. However, blaster deflection is rather different from parrying a lightsaber. The bolt from a blaster travels a linear path and does not fight back. When you lock blades with your enemy, there is a tremendous amount of thought and skill which goes into what happens immediately after the parry occurs. Almost all effective saber techniques (such as flowing water cut, or other Star Wars-y names for established slashes and techniques) rely on making contact and manipulating the enemy's blade to create an opening for yourself. This is why I argue that experience in combat is a powerful factor in your ability to "read" a moment in a duel and exploit it to your advantage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Lets also remember that this is especially important in terms of a Jedi, you say maitaining calm and focus is important for everyone, but it is especially important for a Jedi, because of the Force. Unbalance from the Force could be fatal, and will prevent a Jedi from reaching their full potential. Also, not all Jedi are perfect, and few can maintain complete focus during times of intense war. Even the greatest of Jedi Masters have succumbed to this.
You know, I pored over the articles on Wookiepedia regarding the Jedi Order, the Force, and Lightsaber Combat. Nowhere in there did it say that Jedi are especially degraded by war, any more so than an ordinary soldier is strained psychologically and emotionally by combat. Seeing as how it is so fundamental to your point of view, could you please outline how you arrived at this conclusion?

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Concerning the Clone Wars, you make a good point, war even against droids can be difficult on a Jedi. However in a war with clones and droids, that threat is significantly diminished. Yes Jedi can become attached to clones, but not so much that they cannot let go of those attachments. And when fighting droids then cannot draw off their emotions, or allow the emotions of the droids to cloud their vision.
So it's easier to let go of attachments to clones? Doesn't that seem to make the Republic's war effort highly immoral, that they are producing these soldiers and callously discarding their lives. When a volunteer gives his life to defend the Republic, you can derive some measure of peace from that. You know that he made the ultimate sacrifice to protect what he loves, and that can spur you on to see that fight through to the end, as difficult as it might be, because you're fighting for something you believe in.

The Clones are abused by the Republic. They are bred for war, and never given any choice in the matter. Their free will is overwritten with "programming" and they are expended in battle the same way bullets or ordnance is. If anything, that monstrous abuse should create echoes in the Force on a scale unlike anything seen before.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And concerning Mical, you do realise that the Jedi Civil War was during the period of the Old Republic? Lets not lose sight of what were debating here - OR Jedi vs PT Jedi, not Jedi with combat experience against Jedi without.
Well, you've kind of got that backwards. I am calling into question the lightsaber mastery of the PT Jedi, and comparing their combat experiences with those of Jedi from either the Jedi Civil War or the Great Galactic War. As this discussion has gone on, I suppose my understanding of the situation has evolved somewhat.

And Mical is still only representative of the tail end of the Jedi Civil War, when the Order had been reduced to less than a hundred knights. Let's forget that kid, nobody really liked him anyways, he was too starry-eyed and idealistic
.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And for your point about, 'almost every Jedi worth noting lived in times of conflict' - please name some. .
You know, I'm glad you asked. Here goes!
Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Mace Windu, Bastila Shan, Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, Odan-Ur, Corran Horn, Cin Drallig, Kavar, Cay Qel-Droma, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, Skarch Vaunk, Belth Allusis, Meetra Surik...
You get the idea. Would you mind returning the favor and listing Jedi who lived in peaceful times and were considered to be remarkable duelists? Heck, just list the Jedi who didn't serve in a war, I know I can't think of any...
Like it or not, the Jedi Order is defined by conflict. They have little purpose outside of warfare, and occasionally negotiating (I've rarely seen them do that successfully, though).

Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
Exar Kun: Master of Form VI: Niman with a double-bladed lightsaber defeated the greatest jedi masters of his time easily (his saber mastery was so ahead of his time that his power would be considered timeless) again only became powerful after becoming sith.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I guess Exar Kun would disagree with you. Or is that because he's an OR Jedi/Sith?
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I hadn't really looked into Niman because I didn't know of anyone who used it and didn't get killed immediately (like every Jedi in the Geonosis Arena...)
So I studied what Form VI was all about and actually found it very much to my liking. Why? Because it relies on creativity and intuition in combat, rather than rote training. So for an experienced duelist, Niman allows flexibility and adaptation instead of blindly following the techniques you've memorized. I really like this, as it gives us a clear spectrum of ability. Duelists who are not experienced and attempt to stick to Niman die, whereas a true master is one who has learned to use Niman to dominate the landscape of a duel, such as Exar Kun. For example:

"Exar Kun chose to specialize in Niman, and while there was little doubt that he found the dual-blade training regiments useful when he converted his lightsaber into a double-bladed weapon, he often preferred to fight with a single blade. His skill marked him as one of the finest duelists of his era."
"However, rather than adhere to its philosophy of moderation over aggression, Kun was a vicious duelist who favored brutal power moves and had little compunction against lashing out against his foes with physical attacks. These tendencies were exacerbated by his turn to the Dark Side of the Force, when he actively took to drawing on his rage in combat. However, while he failed to observe the core concepts of Form VI, Kun was never defeated in a lightsaber duel."

"Jedi Master Cin Drallig was considered the most prolific instructor of Form VI, as he was of the five forms below it, teaching Niman to thousands of students during his Jedi career. However, despite his skills and mastery, he was easily cut down by the Form V specialist Darth Vader during the Great Jedi Purge."

So, this appears to be another form that really comes into its own when practiced by an aggressive duelist. Kind of horribly ironic that the "diplomat" form considered the ideal for Jedi Consulars is actually one of the most flexible, aggressive forms when used correctly. Heh heh heh.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I also notice you say war is a 'swift, harsh teacher' - that is true, and many Jedi die because of it and so future generations lack teachers to train them.
But the ones who survive will be stronger for it, and make for the most formidable duelists.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Indeed, in fact in the Mandalorian Wars almost the entire Jedi Order fell to the dark side! And some of the so called greatest duelists of the OR era were in fact Sith at one point in their lives. War corrupts Jedi, hence why they always attempt to steer clear of it.
The Mandalorian Wars, and the Jedi Civil War that followed, were the direct result of Revan's covert war to convert the Jedi to his side. This was no ordinary conflict, but one in which Revan's assassins and agents kidnapped and turned Jedi actively. Revan deliberately turned Jedi to his side, so it's not like they just randomly decided to join the Sith for no reason. He was trying very carefully to consolidate his rule.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.25.2013 , 11:10 PM | #73
Love that we've got some fresh voices jumping on this debate, by the way.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.25.2013 , 11:25 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
I see what you are saying there - but in a discussion that have a lot of opinions in them, any actual facts we do have should be pertinent....

Fact: Cin drallig master of 6 lightsaber Forms - (Working knowledge but not mastery of Juyo)
Fact: Blademaster Ka'sim master of All 7 styles and individual Specialist in Duel-wield Ataru

it's just frustrating at times - that when we actually do have something to compare - it can get ignored if it doesn't quite fit in with people's own personal Opinions.....(not saying you )

I wasn't really talking about Ka'sim's overall power - but his accomplishments with Lightsaber Mastery (knowledge so to speak) - Bane did have to resort to the force to beat him as Bane was being beaten in the actual lightsaber combat itself.....(perhaps Ka'sim realised that he was not the most powerful of the force users so concentrated on Blade skills to give him some kind of edge - as may well be the case with many that become Blademasters - powerful in the force but not THE most powerful in their orders....)


It is hard to judge Mastery - why should Ka'sim's be more invalid than anyone else's? - there was no questioning of his mastery in the books he was flat out stated to be a Master....and he was skilled in the usage of double bladed and duel-wielding sabers so he does demonstrate a pretty complete overall skillset

Would Musashi not be considered a great sword master in this day and age because he was around hundreds of years ago?

Bane became more powerful but became a bit sloppier with the saber due to the protection of the Orbalisks and being able to fight more recklessly making errors that he wouldn't normally make -
Ka'sim seems like the type that was very focused on his blade skills and had he lived would have probably kept improving

I think the Brotherhood may have been somewhat weak in its overall structure and orgainisation, however it's defeat was in large part to betrayal - I'm not sure how weak they were in actual personal power (for instance that Lord Kaan Battle Meditation was pretty impressive - how much PT jedi did you see doing something like that - would have sure helped on Geonosis huh? - Bastilla Shan of thousands of years ago may have been handy to have around then.....) and Bane himself certainly did not consider Lord Kaan weak at all....
The Brotherhood was not Bane's own personal vision of how the Sith should be so he plotted their downfall....

But perhaps the Brotherhood lost an overall path and focus to the Sith vision....... and you could definitely level similar critisism to the PT Jedi - they lost to plotting/betrayal and they lost worse than ANY Jedi order in the history of the Jedi - at no other point in history did the Sith gain such a complete dominance of the entire Galaxy than after beating the PT jedi.....
We all agree that Grandmaster Yoda was one of the most powerful ever - should I dismiss him out of hand as overrated now because his Jedi order got beaten so completely?
Sometimes you have to take circumstance into account the same way and perhaps re-evaluate things and consider that some the individuals in Brotherhood could actually be pretty damn good.....

As I said before - just the admittance that Kun is up there even against the most Powerful Jedi of the PT kind of leaves the door open now - and it can no longer be considered a hard and fast Rule that the PT jedi would be greater than every individual that came before it......

And even with the Banite line it is not without its flaws - the transition can sometimes be a knife edge - the fight between Bane and Zannah could have gone either way - we know Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep.....so victory is not necessarily proof of greater mastery in all areas - because even with this rule sometimes you may be forced to strike at the most opportune moment lest you get killed or replaced - sometimes your hand gets forced earlier than you might want to - or before everything gets passed on - ( when they were killed....Bane was Still superior to Zannah in lightsaber Combat and Plagueis was still Greater than Sidious at midichlorian manipulation) - so even against other Banite Sith I wouldn't dismiss Bane completely out of hand.
The Student had to overcome their own master - so they probably directed their efforts into focusing on that particular Master's flaws - it is possible that Bane may have had the skillset to beat some of the masters that came after him - as we know fights are not ABC logic.....(ie. Obi wan - Dooku- Anakin)

Sorry for going on and on - I just want to make people at least question things and evaluate things on individual circumstance and merit before accepting these types of hard and fast rules......
Glad to see someone breaking out of the paradigm that holds the PT Era Jedi up to an impossible and unfounded standard. You raise excellent points, especially about the Banite Sith.

In fact, Bane's vision really didn't turn out to be Sith Lord A trains Sith Lord B, who gets more "powerful" (whatever that means... pretty vague word, 'powerful') than Sith Lord A and kills him. Then trains Sith Lord C, etc. etc.

Sidous got Plageis drunk and murdered him, Plageis killed his master when an explosion caused a cave in and he just stabbed the guy in the back by dropping rocks on him. So we see a pretty clear pattern where the Sith Lords do not strictly become more powerful, but rather more cunning with each generation, or at least they take further steps along their plot to destroy the Jedi Order through subterfuge. NOT Force or Lightsaber prowess... so ah, the whole Banite/Jedi Golden Age argument begins to get a little fragile here.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.26.2013 , 01:45 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Glad to see someone breaking out of the paradigm that holds the PT Era Jedi up to an impossible and unfounded standard. You raise excellent points, especially about the Banite Sith.

In fact, Bane's vision really didn't turn out to be Sith Lord A trains Sith Lord B, who gets more "powerful" (whatever that means... pretty vague word, 'powerful') than Sith Lord A and kills him. Then trains Sith Lord C, etc. etc.

Sidous got Plageis drunk and murdered him, Plageis killed his master when an explosion caused a cave in and he just stabbed the guy in the back by dropping rocks on him. So we see a pretty clear pattern where the Sith Lords do not strictly become more powerful, but rather more cunning with each generation, or at least they take further steps along their plot to destroy the Jedi Order through subterfuge. NOT Force or Lightsaber prowess... so ah, the whole Banite/Jedi Golden Age argument begins to get a little fragile here.
Whoa, hold up a sec. It's one thing to question a specific point that has not been given a cannon answer (OR jedi do/do not have superior saber skills over PT era), it is a completely different one to question an issue that has both been suitably answered in cannon (it's G-cannon that Sidious is the strongest sith. period) and been debated to the same conclusion in this forum already ( this as well as this) Please dont go mucking around with this stuff, stick to your topic. Also, if you don't like G-cannon feel free to use your own head cannon just don't try and use it here, here we follow the EU's current standard of cannon as a basis for all arguments.

So far I've seen you try and work with cannon to make your point, keep on that track and don't forget one important thing, you might be wrong and it's OK (not saying you are). It's just lots of stuff happens in Star Wars that not everyone likes (Mara Jade's death) but it still happened. Just try and keep an open mind.

You act as though someone can not excel at something without experiencing it first. This is not always true, and this happens to be one of those cases. Jedi are weakened by war and that's how the Star Wars universe works.

It's proven several times. An example, Revan led his jedi in the mando wars before he was dominated by the emperor and turned. He used the jedi's exposure to the dark side during the war to corrupt them and convert them. He never had some master plan, it was the Sith Emperor's plan that Revan merely twisted later. Jedi at war weaken, and they fall. Anakin himself fell (who'd a guessed it) during a war. Luke? During a war. Revan? Directly after a war. Much of the jedi order under Revan? After a war. Kun? After a war. Ulic? War. Traya? war. Both Solo twins? War. Tahiri? War. Dooku? After the battles of Galidraan and Baltizaar. Darth Desolous? War. Krayt? War. Bastila? War ect... the list goes on. See the pattern yet? Jedi don't get stronger as jedi during the wars. It's their touches with the dark side/ violence/ malice that makes them powerful, but it corrodes them and weakens them on the inside. Eventually they either snap, or just wear out.

Edited in an attempt to make it sound less aggressive and more reasoned.
I know if you look deep into your heart- which is currently all over that tree- you'll find a way to forgive me.

Aww, geez you look like a puppy! A blonde, eviscerated puppy!

-Alucard

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.26.2013 , 03:08 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Whoa, hold up a sec. It's one thing to question a specific point that has not been given a cannon answer (OR jedi do/do not have superior saber skills over PT era), it is a completely different one to question an issue that has both been suitably answered in cannon (it's G-cannon that Sidious is the strongest sith. period) and been debated to the same conclusion in this forum already ( this as well as this) Please dont go mucking around with this stuff, stick to your topic. Also, if you don't like G-cannon feel free to use your own head cannon just don't try and use it here, here we follow the EU's current standard of cannon as a basis for all arguments.
That is off topic, you're correct. However, just because Sidious is the best doesn't mean that it's strictly due to the Rule of Two. As near as I can tell, the Rule of Two didn't exactly play out perfectly according to Bane's ideas.


Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
You act as though someone can not excel at something without experiencing it first. This is not always true, and this happens to be one of those cases. Jedi are weakened by war and that's how the Star Wars universe works.

It's proven several times. An example, Revan led his jedi in the mando wars before he was dominated by the emperor and turned. He used the jedi's exposure to the dark side during the war to corrupt them and convert them. He never had some master plan, it was the Sith Emperor's plan that Revan merely twisted later. Jedi at war weaken, and they fall. Anakin himself fell (who'd a guessed it) during a war. Luke? During a war. Revan? Directly after a war. Much of the jedi order under Revan? After a war. Kun? After a war. Ulic? War. Traya? war. Both Solo twins? War. Tahiri? War. Dooku? After the battles of Galidraan and Baltizaar. Darth Desolous? War. Krayt? War. Bastila? War ect... the list goes on. See the pattern yet? Jedi don't get stronger as jedi during the wars. It's their touches with the dark side/ violence/ malice that makes them powerful, but it corrodes them and weakens them on the inside. Eventually they either snap, or just wear out.

Edited in an attempt to make it sound less aggressive and more reasoned.
Don't give me that nonsense about the Sith Emperor's super-evil master plan. It's one retcon I refuse to swallow for a minute.

And perhaps the reason that we see Jedi falling during wartime is because we are never shown a galaxy that isn't at war. Doesn't the temptation to delve into the Dark Side also exist in peacetime? The Jedi closed down all the temples except Coruscant so they could keep a closer eye on things and make sure people weren't studying the Dark Side, so it's not like war is the sole cause of Jedi falling. In my opinion, if they're a bad egg, they're going to fall anyways. Anakin was pretty rotten from the start.

Other Jedi fall because of their curiosity, their desire for power, etc. In fact, I rarely see war directly causing a Jedi's fall except for when they give into savage violence, which can happen to anyone in wartime, so the Jedi aren't special in this respect.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Darth__Carnal's Avatar


Darth__Carnal
02.26.2013 , 06:12 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Are the Prequel Trilogy Jedi all they're cracked up to be?

The Golden Age of the Old Republic, the millenium or so after the Ruusan Reformations, saw peace and prosperity return to a galaxy that had been ravaged by almost constant warfare for centuries. During this time the Jedi Order settled in and kept the peace, acting as negotiators and mediators throughout the Republic.

Supposedly, this was a flourishing of the "Jedi Arts", until the beginnings of the Clone Wars. While certainly, the centuries of peaceful meditation led the Jedi to a greater understanding of the Force and its mysteries... what did they really accomplish? Peaceful introspection is the ultimate calling of the Jedi code, especially for consulars. But were the Jedi Guardians we see during the prequels really the best that the Jedi Order had ever produced? Quite doubtful.

For a thousand years, the Jedi did not see open warfare. In fact, the purpose of the Ruusan reforms was to demilitarize the galaxy. The Army of Light disbanded, and the conventional Republic forces were no more. What few conflicts did occur were dealt with by local planetary forces. The claims that somehow, the PT Jedi Order had perfected the arts of combat in this era are absurd. While the technical aspects of the lightsaber forms were of course still known to the Jedi, they lacked practical experience with combat. Even worse, each generation of instructors who lacked experience in warfare then trained another generation, multiplying the effects of their inexperience.

In the old days, starting the the Hundred Years Darkness and concluding with the Ruusan Reforms in the time of Darth Bane, lightsaber combat was not just a flourishing art. It was life or death, as force sensitive combatants fought on all sides of every war in those eras. And wars were frequent.

It was during these days that we saw the most rapid evolution of the lightsaber forms, rapidly expanding from the simplistic movements of Shii-Cho to incorporate the dueling form of Makashi, and so on until the time of Exar Kun, when Niman had been developed. By the days of the Jedi Civil War, Juyo was in practice, even if frowned upon by the Jedi Council.

In these times, any battle would involve numerous lightsaber duels. These were not artistic, complex affairs, but rather deadly contests on the field of battle. Jedi regularly fought Sith, and Dark Jedi of all stripes. Even amongst the Sith, lethal duels were extremely common, seen as both preparation for facing the Jedi and to weed out the weak among them.

Count Dooku lamented the way the Jedi Council had allowed dueling techniques to deteriorate by the times of the PT, and even in the times of the First Jedi Purge, Kreia warned the Jedi Exile that compared to ancient masters like Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos, more modern Jedi were merely "children playing with toys". It is clear that during the ancient times, duelists were far more formidable than in the PT era. This is not to say that the vaunted Master Yoda did not possess vast wisdom and knowledge of the Force, but that the combat skills of the PT Jedi were not up to scratch when the Clone Wars opened up.
You are correct.

Case and point, Day 1 of the Clone Wars, "Geonosis Arena" How many Jedi died that day ?

Basically everyone of the Jedi that learned Form 6 was killed. Why ?

Because like what you mentioned, Form 6 was the cliff notes of lightsaber styles. The fact that you had Jedi studying "Cliff notes" on lightsaber sword styles proves the fact that the Jedi were getting soft.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.26.2013 , 11:29 AM | #78
The problems with using Kas'im and Exar Kun as an argument is that they were both Sith. The argument for Kas'im in particular is entirely irrelevant, because he was Sith since birth, we simply cannot use this in this debate as Sith had an entirely different skills set to Jedi, operated in a different way and had different experiences.

Arguably Kun only reached his prime as a Sith Lord, and arguably he was not that powerful compared to the Jedi of the PT Order. The only measuring stick we have in this case are the lightsaber forms. Kun only mastered one form: Niman. Whereas many of the PT Jedi High Council mastered several, if not all, of the forms. I feat I have seen little to no evidence of the OR Jedi era.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.26.2013 , 12:24 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The problems with using Kas'im and Exar Kun as an argument is that they were both Sith. The argument for Kas'im in particular is entirely irrelevant, because he was Sith since birth, we simply cannot use this in this debate as Sith had an entirely different skills set to Jedi, operated in a different way and had different experiences.

Arguably Kun only reached his prime as a Sith Lord, and arguably he was not that powerful compared to the Jedi of the PT Order. The only measuring stick we have in this case are the lightsaber forms. Kun only mastered one form: Niman. Whereas many of the PT Jedi High Council mastered several, if not all, of the forms. I feat I have seen little to no evidence of the OR Jedi era.
Alright, forget the Sith for now. Let's focus back on the Jedi.

Earlier we were discussing a number of things about the effects of war on Jedi, particularly the Clone Wars. Those are the more pertinent arguments here, let's settle the big points before we get too caught up in any one particular duelist's abilities.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.26.2013 , 01:24 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
You know, I pored over the articles on Wookiepedia regarding the Jedi Order, the Force, and Lightsaber Combat. Nowhere in there did it say that Jedi are especially degraded by war, any more so than an ordinary soldier is strained psychologically and emotionally by combat. Seeing as how it is so fundamental to your point of view, could you please outline how you arrived at this conclusion?
Forgive me but I find this incredibly frustrating, this has been the central point to my argument and I have repeatedly given a wealth of evidence to suggest it is the case. And ordinary soldiers are, obviously strained psychologically and emotionally by combat e.g. shell shock. I assume you have some grasp of conflict and the human pscyhe, and will therefore be aware that taking another life has massive effects on a person. But to avoid repeating myself, I'll just quote myself instead:
Quote:
...war encourages powerful emotions such as anger and hate, and it also clouds vision and makes it difficult for a Jedi to focus himself. For a light sided Jedi this harms he connection to the Force, unbalances him, and so negatively effects his ability to wield a lightsaber.
Quote:
One's connection to the Light Side of the Force is negatively affected by war, take the Jedi Code:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
- war creates anger, hatred, pain etc. and it dispels peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
- war destroys knowledge, both through killing those who possess it and destroying records that hold it e.g. the destruction of the Jedi Temple, and the Jedi Library on Ossus.

There is no passion, there is serenity.
- war encourages passion, in the heat of battle it is all to easy to embrace ones emotions and allow them to unbalance you, this is what happened to Anakin Skywalker.

There is no chaos, there is harmony
- war creates chaos and death and causes rifts to open up both physically and spiritually. It is often difficult to achieve harmony and serenity in the midst of battle.

There is no death, there is the Force
- this line is not exactly relevant, but nonetheless seeing countless die before you, seeing their lives wasted may make a Jedi doubt the integrity of this line.

All together war is the antithesis of what a Jedi stands for and oppossed to the Light Side of the Force - as such when a Jedi engages in war they risk losing affinity with the light and becoming unfocused and unbalanced.
Quote:
Dun moch is also evidence of this, it was often used by the Sith to unbalance their Jedi opponents by encouraging them to embrace their emotions. Darth Maul uses this against Obi-Wan Kenobi if you recall:

"Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way, is it?"
Quote:
Indeed if anyone has played the Sith Warrior storyline they will recall the Jedi Master on Hoth who had spent many years in solitude, drawing closer and closer to the Force, without the chaos of battle surrounding him he grew more powerful:

"The Force is with me, greater than ever now. I suspect I could defeat you quite handily. But I'm no longer concerned with the tidings of this galaxy, or these times. I only seek to continue my transcendence."
Quote:
Jedi are keepers of peace, not soldiers - just like Windu says. And that applies to all Jedi of all eras. When Jedi become warriors and warmongers like they do in the OR period, many become unbalanced and lose affinity with the Force and so either embrace the darkside or become weakened. For example Nahdar Vebb who said:

"But in this war, strength prevails. The rules have changed."

Only later to be cut down by Grievous do to his own arrogance and aggresion, which not only made him foolhardy but dulled his senses - hence the success of a cheap trick on Grievous' part. And as Yoda later lamented:

"In this war, a danger there is of losing who we are."

And you may recall what Satele Shan said to the soon-to-be Hero of Tython after the latter took a life:

"Taking a life affects the Living Force, and the one who does the killing."

Imagine that but on a massive scale, also remember that this would have been an even greater problem in a war against biological and often angry/emotional enemies.
Quote:
Do you really think that all the Revanchists simply embraced the darkside because their master did so? No, it was because the war and worn them down and weakened them, they lost touch with the light. Again like Kreia said;

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from..."
Quote:
Concerning war, I would completely agree that despite the Jedi's proficiency in lightsaber etc. they are not suited for war. War causes chaos, death, emotions and suffering - that benefits the Sith not the Jedi. Hence why the Jedi are guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. The Jedi are most certainly not an order of warriors, that is an entirely distorted view and if Master Yoda were here he would certainly be reprimanding you. Take the following:

"The best blades are those kept in their sheaths." ~ Tythonese Sky Judge Culoph.

"More fundamental than even Form I is Form Zero - finding a non-violent solution to any problem you encounter"
~ Jedi Battlemaster Skarch Vaunk.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." ~ Yoda.

"A Jedi's first concern is to preserve life." ~ Kol Skywalker.

The title of 'warrior' for a Jedi is secondary, their primary titles are 'negotiator' and 'peacemaker'. War and violence is always a last resort, both due to the effect it has on others and the Living Force, and through that, the Jedi themselves. Lets also remember that this is especially important in terms of a Jedi, you say maitaining calm and focus is important for everyone, but it is especially important for a Jedi, because of the Force. Unbalance from the Force could be fatal, and will prevent a Jedi from reaching their full potential. Also, not all Jedi are perfect, and few can maintain complete focus during times of intense war. Even the greatest of Jedi Masters have succumbed to this.
All the above points are supported with legitimate evidence - in fact I count 12 Star Wars sources that back up my argument - so I really don't see how you could come out with such a comment. The irony being that one of those I quoted was directly above what you quoted of me. Selective reading perhaps? Yes you will find no direct statement saying 'war is bad for Jedi' - but we know powerful emotions are bad for Jedi and war breeds powerful emotions - it is a logical assumption to make. I also advise you read this page as well - so you can better understand the nature of the light side of the Force, take special note of the opening quote and the image of the meditating Jedi.

And concerning the Mandalorian Wars, we have little evidence to suggest that throughout the course of the Mandalorian Wars (until Malachor V) Revan was actively and deliberately attempting to turn Jedi to the dark side. And if he was, there was only one weapon he was using - war. I challenge you to find one other method (excluding Malachor V) that Revan used to turn Jedi to the dark side during the Mandalorian Wars.

Concerning Soresu, yes I agree that alone it is not effective as an attack form. But my argument was that you shouldn't nullify its effectiveness in lightsaber combat because it was effective against blasters. As I have already proven, it is more than effective when defending against single and multiple lightsaber wielding opponents. But of course, to maximise its potential other forms should be learned along side it. But they were, e.g. Kenobi mastered several others forms to complement it. Even so, alone it was still formidable. I notice you hone in on Zannah, but fail to account for the fact that Kenobi defeated Anakin and Grievous through pure Soresu.

Concerning the immorality of the Republic's war effort, I would completely agree with you. IMO breeding humans for the sole purpose of war is immoral. However you misunderstand the Force. Doing 'immoral acts, from a perspective' does not disrupt the Force. What disrupts the Force is death, pain, destruction and strong emotions - creating clone armies does not create any of those effects. The Force, so to speak, does not have a 'moral compass'. Granted there was a lot of death and destruction in the Clone Wars, but what it lacked was the strong emotions, and a lot less death too. I'm not saying the Clone Wars don't have negative effects on Jedi, they do, but less so than previous wars.

And concerning Mical, no I will not 'forget it' - it is a crucial point in my argument that war creates a lack of Jedi to train future generations and so all combat experience learned in that period is largely wasted. The Mandalorian War is a war is it not? And Mical not being trained as a Jedi is a product of that war is it not? Instead of dismissing the point, instead address it.

And about your list? What is your point? You may notice that you do not make one, just an observation. "Powerful Jedi existed in times of war!" That's nice. I hope you are not suggesting that 'Jedi doing memorable/important stuff means they are powerful and skilled with a lightsaber!' - because that's just plain silly.