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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.25.2013 , 01:48 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Frog_brains View Post
ok just to add some more confusion to the fire. In Ep 1 we hear yoda and windu in th council chambers talking about how the jedi were loosing their connection with the force, and how the coming of the chosen one "anakin" would be the re-balancing of the force. Supposely reinforcing the jedi's ability to use the force. Master Yoda was very concerned that he wan't able to sense the rising of this new threat from the Sith. It seems like at this time the jedi were running into a situation that the rakatta ran into in this game a force sensitive race that was loosing its ability to control the force. So at a time now that yes maybe the actual technical aspects of lightsaber and force combat have evolved, would the loss of conection to the force offset any technical improvements in technique?
Easily explained. In two ways.

Way 1 (Lore): The quote you took from Yoda is out of context. He was referring to the ability of Jedi to forsee the future and sense the Dark Side. The average Jedi in this era was unaffected by Sidious as it relates to their combat ability. Sidious was merely blocking Yoda's only means of stopping him.

Way 2 (George Lucas): Lucas has already made it G-cannon that PT Jedi are more powerful (we assume in the force) than OR Jedi.

In any case, there was no loss of connection to the force by PT Jedi in any cannon sources and certainly no relation to the Rakata. If anything, the PT has more of a connection to the force.
Zey: "Kal, you know that the Sith are bad news. They're evil. They've always been the cause of endless war and carnage across the galaxy."
Skirata: "Oh, that's a good one. 'My decapitations are more morally valid than your decapitations.' Only difference I can see is that they plan to end up with trillions dead, and you do-gooders manage it by accident."

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.25.2013 , 01:58 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well let's go over this. While Obi-Wan would be of great help in the battle against the Emperor, there is still a very high chance that he would be killed. As it is noted in the ROTS novelization, as the duel between Yoda and Sidious comes to a close, Yoda has been pushed to his limits, while Sidious hsa not reached that point.

Think of it this way. If they both went off to face the Emperor, they could both be killed, leaving the galaxy in eternal darkness. By splitting up, they ensure that at least one of them will survive. Yoda believed that Obi-Wan could beat Anakin, but he would be no match for Sidious. Yoda had to ensure the survival of one of them. By sending Obi-Wan to face Anakin, he ensured that at least one of them would survive. However, the battle ended in a gamble, with Obi-Wan being the victor.

I do think it would have been wise for them to face the Emperor together, but the chance for failure was still too high. But their would be the chance for success, just not a very high one. Sidious could destroy Obi-Wan with ease if he wished to.

That line of reasoning still doesn't make much sense. Kenobi and Skywalker were almost perfectly evenly matched, that duel could have gone down either way. If Kenobi had been killed by Skywalker, and Yoda killed by the Emperor, that would have been it for the Jedi Order.

If Yoda believed the Emperor was actually so powerful that it wouldn't matter if he brought along help anyways, what was he doing confronting him in the first place? It was pure luck he escaped that fight, had it turned out differently the Emperor might simply have killed Yoda as well.

So we are presented with two scenarios:
Yoda believed he could take the Emperor by himself, which would be a fairly arrogant assumption since he just trounced four Jedi Masters, and that Obi-Wan wasn't needed to ensure victory in that duel.

Or, Yoda thought his duel with the Emperor was hopeless, in which case why not have both of them go to confront Skywalker? It's pretty clear their intention is to kill him, since Kenobi's first reaction is to say "I can't kill Anakin" when Yoda asks him to confront Skywalker. And since Kenobi knows he and Skywalker are roughly equivalent in skill, it would make sense for Yoda to accompany him to make sure they kill at least one of the Sith.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
1. The Jedi were keeping the peace throughout the galaxy. Going off on missions to settle disputes or put an end to 'law-breakers' and their ilk. Their actions included fighting in the Yinchorri Uprising and the Stark Hyperspace Wars.

But they were also expanding their knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Peace times are excellent times to broaden knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Veterans of the New Sith Wars passed on their knowledge of the lightsaber forms, allowing the Jedi to learn from their predecessors and pass these teachings down to other generations. The forms were also expanded upon.


The forms were revolutionized during the 1000 year peace. Bane believed that the Jedi would stagnate, while the Sith grew in power and skill, but he was wrong. The Jedi advanced just as much as the Sith did. The Jedi didn't just sit around. They actively developed the lightsaber forms. While you are correct that dueling forms like Makashi went out of style, the Jedi still practised and mastered forms that could be used against lightsaber wielding opponents.
Without any new conflicts, or additional experience, I doubt that they will be "revolutionizing" lightsaber fighting. Again, they have no reason to change the forms that they're being taught. On top of that, I don't see any evidence that this happened, either.
In fact, consulting Wookiepedia yielded this:

Quote:
With the Final battle of Ruusan, most of the Sith and other Darksider organizations were annihilated or driven into hiding, and Jedi lightsaber combat experienced radical changes as a consequence. The dueling-centric Makashi style was rendered obsolete due to its lack of effectiveness against blaster-wielding opponents, as well as the simple lack of lightsaber-wielding opponents. Thus was the same with the more obscure weapon variants; by 32 BBY, the use of double-bladed lightsabers in actual combat as opposed to training was practically unheard of.

So we actually see forms of lightsaber combat fade out or disappear from use during this period. The Jedi Order clearly moves away from lightsaber dueling to focus on other combat techniques.


Quote:
Windu was a Juyo specialist who was working towards completing the form, as the lack of duelists with the self-control necessary to practice Form VII left it still under development.

Form VII stays in the state of development that the New Sith Wars left it in for almost a thousand years before Mace Windu picks it back up and starts refining it. This hardly indicates that the Jedi Order had been hard at work honing their dueling skills during their Golden Age.

Quote:
The Clone Wars would bring about a multitude of changes in lightsaber combat, as the more moderate forms the Jedi had specialized in for the last millennia proved lacking on the battlefield

I don't really think I need to elaborate on this... the Clone Wars were a shock to the Jedi, and their styles needed to undergo serious work in order to be up to scratch for actual combat.

Quote:
Notably, all the Niman practitioners involved in the Battle of Geonosis perished in combat

I said earlier that style was useless. Not that it matters much, but it's nice to feel vindicated sometimes.


Quote:
By the end of the war, Dooku and Grievous were slain by Skywalker and Kenobi, respectively. Their vastly increased skill marked them as two of the finest duelists in the Jedi Order

This says that Skywalker and Kenobi's skills increased drastically over the course of the Clone Wars (measured from when they dueled Dooku for the first time to the events of RotS), which seems to heavily support my thesis that Jedi improve their skills during warfare just the same as anyone else. While part of this may be explained by Skywalker completing his training as a Jedi Knight, Kenobi was already a Master by Episode II, and yet he clearly improved his skills "vastly" during the Clone Wars. And if you are correct about the Jedi being needed on the front lines constantly, then that means all of his development would be from combat experience.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Remember that they learned of the Rule of Two from Kibh Jeen, a fallen Jedi. It was considered the ravings of a madman, but they eventually discussed the return of the Sith before the Battle of Naboo. Remember that Mace Windu also says "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." So Mace Windu and Yoda knew the Sith would return, but then Ki-Adi Mundi says that it is impossible. It is confusing.

However, this also explains why only Yoda and Mace Windu can compete with Palpatine (in the words of George Lucas), as they may be the only ones who had been preparing. Of course none of this is canon fact (except for what Lucas just said), so I'm theorizing here.

Right, this is basically wild mass guessing. The only things we know for sure are that Yoda and Windu expect the return of two Sith, and that Ki-Adi Mundi is skeptical, probably because the Jedi expected to find out about the Sith before they attacked.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
But then why aren't Jedi falling to the Dark Side during the Clone Wars? Well Jedi did fall, just not that many. The Clone Wars is a different kind of war, against an enemy never fought before- droids. Jedi feel the emotions of those around, and react to them. Droids do not have emotions, and their destruction has no effect on the Living Force, therefore a Jedi has little to worry about in terms of losing connection to the Light.

Did you read my earlier arguments about how the Clone Wars were not so different from other wars in terms of the shockwaves sent out through the living Force? It's not the droids' deaths, but the Clones' which would impact the Jedi.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I think what you need to understand is that combat experience works differently for a Jedi than it does for a Sith or regular soldier. Sith are your standard soldier. They are always learning and feeding off of the combat. Jedi are not like that. While you could say that they learn from combat as well, but it is not combat that strengthens a Jedi. Peace times give strength to the Jedi, war strengthens the Sith.

The nature of the Light Side is to be at peace. As followers of the Light, the Jedi share the same traits. I think that is what you need to understand.

And I'm disagreeing with you on this because the body of evidence supports my case, which is that the Jedi learn from combat just the same as anyone else. Peacetime is great for training and preparing, but it's warfare that really separates the people who are skilled at sparring from the real masters, the duelists who intuitively understand the nature of combat.

Again, I am not saying that the PT Era Jedi were bad at fighting. They trained and prepared, and fought pretty well in the Clone Wars. But that's what they were preparing for, to fight against blaster wielding enemies.

Even with all that preparation, the war still caught them by surprise, and forced them to adapt their styles and tactics during the conflict. They learned, and improved based on their experience.

My original point was that Jedi from the eras when lightsaber combat was common would have similar experience, only with lightsabers. This is why I would consider duelists (strictly lightsabers vs. lightsabers) from those eras to likely be superior to an equally trained Jedi from the PT Era.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.25.2013 , 02:42 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post

That line of reasoning still doesn't make much sense. Kenobi and Skywalker were almost perfectly evenly matched, that duel could have gone down either way. If Kenobi had been killed by Skywalker, and Yoda killed by the Emperor, that would have been it for the Jedi Order.

If Yoda believed the Emperor was actually so powerful that it wouldn't matter if he brought along help anyways, what was he doing confronting him in the first place? It was pure luck he escaped that fight, had it turned out differently the Emperor might simply have killed Yoda as well.

So we are presented with two scenarios:
Yoda believed he could take the Emperor by himself, which would be a fairly arrogant assumption since he just trounced four Jedi Masters, and that Obi-Wan wasn't needed to ensure victory in that duel.

Or, Yoda thought his duel with the Emperor was hopeless, in which case why not have both of them go to confront Skywalker? It's pretty clear their intention is to kill him, since Kenobi's first reaction is to say "I can't kill Anakin" when Yoda asks him to confront Skywalker. And since Kenobi knows he and Skywalker are roughly equivalent in skill, it would make sense for Yoda to accompany him to make sure they kill at least one of the Sith.
Personally, I don't know what they were thinking, but they did what they did.

Quote:
Without any new conflicts, or additional experience, I doubt that they will be "revolutionizing" lightsaber fighting. Again, they have no reason to change the forms that they're being taught. On top of that, I don't see any evidence that this happened, either.
In fact, consulting Wookiepedia yielded this:
I consulted Wookieepedia as well (because I knew you would). My search yielded similar results, except you leave out several points that counter your argument.

Quote:
Despite this, the era produced one of the greatest lightsaber duelists to ever exist: Yoda.
Like that^

Quote:

So we actually see forms of lightsaber combat fade out or disappear from use during this period. The Jedi Order clearly moves away from lightsaber dueling to focus on other combat techniques.



Form VII stays in the state of development that the New Sith Wars left it in for almost a thousand years before Mace Windu picks it back up and starts refining it. This hardly indicates that the Jedi Order had been hard at work honing their dueling skills during their Golden Age.
You are seriously going to use Juyo for your argument? The Jedi try to stay away from Juyo because it uses dark emotion and aggressive fighting, which the Jedi don't do. Mace Windu revolutionized Juyo by introducing Vaapad.

Quote:

I don't really think I need to elaborate on this... the Clone Wars were a shock to the Jedi, and their styles needed to undergo serious work in order to be up to scratch for actual combat.
Would this not support the idea that they were preparing for the Sith, and not droids?

Quote:

I said earlier that style was useless. Not that it matters much, but it's nice to feel vindicated sometimes.
I guess Exar Kun would disagree with you. Or is that because he's an OR Jedi/Sith?

Quote:

And I'm disagreeing with you on this because the body of evidence supports my case, which is that the Jedi learn from combat just the same as anyone else. Peacetime is great for training and preparing, but it's warfare that really separates the people who are skilled at sparring from the real masters, the duelists who intuitively understand the nature of combat.

Again, I am not saying that the PT Era Jedi were bad at fighting. They trained and prepared, and fought pretty well in the Clone Wars. But that's what they were preparing for, to fight against blaster wielding enemies.

Even with all that preparation, the war still caught them by surprise, and forced them to adapt their styles and tactics during the conflict. They learned, and improved based on their experience.

My original point was that Jedi from the eras when lightsaber combat was common would have similar experience, only with lightsabers. This is why I would consider duelists (strictly lightsabers vs. lightsabers) from those eras to likely be superior to an equally trained Jedi from the PT Era.
And yet, the actual canon proves you wrong. Let's take the Grand Master of the TOR Order (Satele Shan), and pit her against the Grand Master of the PT Order (Yoda). Not only is it G-canon that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi Pre-Luke, but his accolades prove him as such. He mastered the seven forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent. He could lift large starships like an X-Wing, mastered the use of Force Push and Force Wave to the extreme, could use Battle Meditation, could utilize Farsight to a similar degree as Darth Sidious, and could dissipate Force Lightning with his bare hands, even the Force lightning of Darth Sidious (who had the most powerful Force lightning ever). And finally, he was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

Satele has similar accolades and she is quite powerful, however, Yoda has proven himself to be her superior.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble and your well constructed argument (flawed as it is), but the Jedi Masters we see in the Prequels are simply superior to their predecessors. But that isn't to say that the OR Jedi are weak, it's just that the PT Jedi are on another level. Just as the TOR Jedi are on a higher level to the JCW Jedi. It's the natural progression of time and the advancement of teachings.

Final remarks- there is no myth. While you make good points and have a good theory, the actual canon disproves your theory. There is no myth.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.25.2013 , 02:54 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Why thank you! And your color is actually slightly different than mine apparently, so I'm not so broken up now

Eh, perhaps your posts inspired my selection of color.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
"a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never attack" -Yoda

Ah, now this is rather easily explained. Why does any peace loving people arm themselves and train to fight? Because there is always an enemy who wishes to destroy them. Remember "The Jedi where the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..." -Ben Kenobi. It may weaken them in the long run (if they actually have to fight), hence why they're such avid proponents of negotiation, but they'll still have to fight whenever the sith are around because they are the only ones who can stop the sith. The PT era Jedi get thousands of years of peace to train without the weariness of war. If they where at war for a thousand years, they'd be weaker.

Naturally, prolonged conflict will drain any organization's resources. I'm not saying that war builds anyone up, but rather that one of the side effects of conflict is that the people who execute the war gain valuable experience.
It just seems strange that the people who are most damaged by war, and have the least capacity to cope with its hardships, would be dedicating themselves as warriors.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
You're using 'earth' reasoning again. We cannot feel the force and so it is difficult to understand the concept. However through reading the force-using character's thoughts and seeing the results of their actions, we know that war has a negative impact on the Light Side of the Force (the force as a whole really). Due to the hyper-sensitivity jedi have to the force. Imagine every time you killed, you could feel it. Every time a friend or enemy died you felt their life blink out of existence and you could feel the emotions of that soldier you are about to stab. The constant waves of fear, anger, grief ect... will wear you down. **Disclaimer- I'm trying to give you a sense of what the force feels like, but I certainly dont do it justice, its like everything I've said time ten.

Well, that's where I think you're mistaken. In real life, you're affected by killing. It carries an indescribable emotional toll, and it's something that soldiers have grappled with forever.
So, while the Jedi may have a more visceral sense of the emotions surrounding violence, it simply makes it easier for them to have empathy for the people around them. It is possible to create a duality within your own mind, however, where you acknowledge the emotions and humanity of your enemies but simultaneously steel yourself to carry out the war. This requires conviction in your cause, however, and a subtle understanding of compassion tempered with righteousness. Honestly, it sounds a lot like what Jedi should be striving for.


Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
'Earth' reasoning here. You should let go of concepts like 'human nature' in topics regarding the force, as the force has its own nature that overrides the human one.

But the people using the Force are, for the most part, humans. Their interactions with the Force, and their experiences with life, will be largely governed by human nature. Part of what makes Star Wars so popular is our ability to identify with characters and the struggles they experience. If Jedi no longer have a connection to human nature, then they lose the majority of their story telling power because we can no longer identify with them as characters. The heart of science fiction is, interestingly, human nature.

The advanced technology and fantastic environments really just provide an exciting setting for human stories to play out. Without those characters, any science fiction milieu becomes uninteresting because it loses its ability to provoke emotional responses.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.25.2013 , 03:01 PM | #65
Well this debate has kinda gone on without me... oh well, I'll do my best to keep up.

Firstly, Ventessel, you are severly downplaying the effectiveness of Soresu. Given that it was one of the most popular forms of the Jedi Order of all eras (it favored passivity and was very much in correlation with the Jedi Code), it must have had several advantages in lightsaber battle. And it did, take the following practioners:

Darth Zannah - she was trained in Soresu to make up for her slight form and with it confronted and defeated many powerful adversaries, including Bane himself.

Obi-Wan Kenobi - the master of Soresu and with it challenged and defeated many powerful adversaries, including easily overcoming General Grievous, who had slain many Jedi in the past. And later used to defeat Anakin's Djem So - an aggressive form supposedly designed specifically for lightsaber combat.

Luminara Unduli - also a master of Soresu, she managed to go toe-to-toe with the powerful Asajj Ventress despite being blinded in one eye - her Padawan was also powerful.

What's more, to make up for the deficiencies in Soresu, it was often learned along side Ataru and Shien. And despite what Luke says about Ataru, Obi Wan Kenobi used to to great proficiency, as a Padawan. Take the following:

It was well-suited to close combat, particularly against single opponents. Due to its speed and agility, Ataru was recommended for use by Jedi with the ability to enhance their speed and stamina with the Force. ~ Wookieepedia.

It may have deficiencies, but you cannot nullify it as a redundant Form only usable in as a last resort. The same applies for the other forms, they were all designed (excluding Makashi) to combat blasters and lightsabers. I also never heard anyone saying Soresu was inadvisable against a lightsaber wielding opponent. Not to mention that deflecting blaster bolts does bear similarities to deflecting lightsabers e.g. the are both fast and accurate attacks which require precise and equally rapid responses. Defense tends to have a universal aspect to it e.g. a shield can defend against arrows and well as swords.

Let's also remember that only Makashi fell into disuse because it was not adaptable, the likes of Ataru, Djem So and Jar'Kai still remained practiced by many members of the Order. And I agree, Juyo has an advantage over Soresu, but my point was that Juyo was rarely practiced by Jedi across all eras because of its aggressiveness. It was essentially a Sith form and few Jedi had the aptitude to master it.

Also, we cannot compare Star Wars with real world happenings, the dilution of the 'black belt' was (and I'm no expert) not because there was no need for martial arts anymore, but because karate became commercialized (although that may have been because of the former). Lightsaber combat, as far as I'm aware, has not become commercialized. And we have no evidence to suggest that the title of 'master' - in relation to a form - has lost or gained any weight over the millennia. If anything it is the latter, because forms would logically naturally improve and be refined over time - another point in favour for the PT Order.

Concerning war, I would completely agree that despite the Jedi's proficiency in lightsaber etc. they are not suited for war. War causes chaos, death, emotions and suffering - that benefits the Sith not the Jedi. Hence why the Jedi are guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. The Jedi are most certainly not an order of warriors, that is an entirely distorted view and if Master Yoda were here he would certainly be reprimanding you. Take the following:

"The best blades are those kept in their sheaths." ~ Tythonese Sky Judge Culoph.

"More fundamental than even Form I is Form Zero - finding a non-violent solution to any problem you encounter"
~ Jedi Battlemaster Skarch Vaunk.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." ~ Yoda.

"A Jedi's first concern is to preserve life." ~ Kol Skywalker.

The title of 'warrior' for a Jedi is secondary, their primary titles are 'negotiator' and 'peacemaker'. War and violence is always a last resort, both due to the effect it has on others and the Living Force, and through that, the Jedi themselves. Lets also remember that this is especially important in terms of a Jedi, you say maitaining calm and focus is important for everyone, but it is especially important for a Jedi, because of the Force. Unbalance from the Force could be fatal, and will prevent a Jedi from reaching their full potential. Also, not all Jedi are perfect, and few can maintain complete focus during times of intense war. Even the greatest of Jedi Masters have succumbed to this.

Concerning the Clone Wars, you make a good point, war even against droids can be difficult on a Jedi. However in a war with clones and droids, that threat is significantly diminished. Yes Jedi can become attached to clones, but not so much that they cannot let go of those attachments. And when fighting droids then cannot draw off their emotions, or allow the emotions of the droids to cloud their vision. Of course war is war however, and not all Jedi were immune to this e.g. Nahdar Vebb. In this sense, I would more attribute (and this is a point I ignored) the 'blindness' etc of the Jedi to Sidious and the growing power of the Sith. Indeed as Yoda says:

"Hmmm. The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is."

Apologies for the contradiction their, I guess I got a little carried away...

Concerning Kenobi, he is one of the Jedi who would have been able to rise above the tides of war - one significantly diminished by its nature - and not feel its negative effects. Obi-Wan is one of them. Lets also remember that constant practice against droids is bound to hone your abilities in Soresu, its like a training exercise. Also, he was merely honing his ability, the 10 year period beforehand made up for the larger portion of his abilities.

And concerning Mical, you do realise that the Jedi Civil War was during the period of the Old Republic? Lets not lose sight of what were debating here - OR Jedi vs PT Jedi, not Jedi with combat experience against Jedi without. Your argument about Mical not being trustworthy is also pure speculation, if we are skeptical of everything then this debate becomes pointless. The fact that Meetra knew him, that he recognised Kreia, that he was naive, innocent and overly trusting, and that he was Force-sensitive seems to heavily imply this is the case anyway.

And for your point about, 'almost every Jedi worth noting lived in times of conflict' - please name some. Do you perhaps refer to the likes of Revan, Exar Kun and Ulic? The ones who fell to the dark side and attacked the Republic? Or perhaps you refer to Bastila Shan who lost her lightsaber and was captured by a swoop gang? I suggest you visit this page. And consult the 'Notable members' for the facts. You'll notice that 65% of those Jedi lived in times of peace, not war - so its actually quite the opposite. And that's including Bastila and Revan, without them its around 80%.

EDIT: I also notice you say war is a 'swift, harsh teacher' - that is true, and many Jedi die because of it and so future generations lack teachers to train them.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.25.2013 , 03:19 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
edit: just had a thought! Think of how many Jedi went to the Dark Side in OR and how many went Dark Side on PT, you'll find many more fallen Jedi in the war-torn periods.
Indeed, in fact in the Mandalorian Wars almost the entire Jedi Order fell to the dark side! And some of the so called greatest duelists of the OR era were in fact Sith at one point in their lives. War corrupts Jedi, hence why they always attempt to steer clear of it.

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.25.2013 , 03:59 PM | #67
I think i kinda need to reiterate this how many masters of saber combat were there in the OR compared to the PT, lets look.
OR Jedi
Revan Reborn: no confirmed saber form mastery, but was considered to be a master of saber combat (similar to Agen Kolar and Sassee Tin not having confirmed saber forms but were still masters of saber combat) also only became powerful enough to challenge PT masters after regaining his memories that he had as a sith and jedi.

Jaric Kaedan: Master of his own style of Form VII: Juyo'Ko's, defeated the Dread Masters (all 6 together in his prime)

Exar Kun: Master of Form VI: Niman with a double-bladed lightsaber defeated the greatest jedi masters of his time easily (his saber mastery was so ahead of his time that his power would be considered timeless) again only became powerful after becoming sith

Satele Shan: No confirmed mastery of a saber form and has never defeated any noteworth sith, likewise with any other jedi of this age

PT Jedi
Yoda: Mastered all 7 forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent
Mace Windu: Mastered all 7 forms and invented his own variant of Form VII: Vaapad
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Mastered Soresu to its highest extent with variations of Ataru implemented
Count Dooku: Mastered Makashi to its highest extent even before he became sith
Anakin Skywalker: Mastered Djem So before he became sith (as a sith he perfected it to its highest extent)
Plo Koon: Mastered Djem So, just not quite to the extent of Anakin
Ki-Adi Mundi: Mastered Ataru
Kit Fitso: Mastered Shii-cho to its highest extent (making it viable in saber combat)
Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin: like Revan no confirmed mastery of a saber form but were considere to be masters of saber combat
Shaak Ti: combined parts of Ataru and Makashi together into her own style and was considered a master of saber combat
Aayla Secura: Mastered Ataru with some skill in Djem So
Quinlan Vos: Mastered Ataru
Cin Drallig: Mastered every form of saber combat except Juyo

Where i can name few jedi about 4 (but i may have ommited a few) who were masters of saber combat in the OR (and most of them gained their power after becoming sith at some point in their lives) i can name countless jedi who were masters of saber combat in the PT (here i definitely omitted more than a few which makes up for omitting the OR jedi). Need i say more really cause i dont know any better way to show this. Aurbere and Beni have done an excellent job proving this myth as sheer fact but i just feel like building on it.

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
02.25.2013 , 07:30 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
I think i kinda need to reiterate this how many masters of saber combat were there in the OR compared to the PT, lets look.
OR Jedi
Revan Reborn: no confirmed saber form mastery, but was considered to be a master of saber combat (similar to Agen Kolar and Sassee Tin not having confirmed saber forms but were still masters of saber combat) also only became powerful enough to challenge PT masters after regaining his memories that he had as a sith and jedi.

Jaric Kaedan: Master of his own style of Form VII: Juyo'Ko's, defeated the Dread Masters (all 6 together in his prime)

Exar Kun: Master of Form VI: Niman with a double-bladed lightsaber defeated the greatest jedi masters of his time easily (his saber mastery was so ahead of his time that his power would be considered timeless) again only became powerful after becoming sith

Satele Shan: No confirmed mastery of a saber form and has never defeated any noteworth sith, likewise with any other jedi of this age

PT Jedi
Yoda: Mastered all 7 forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent
Mace Windu: Mastered all 7 forms and invented his own variant of Form VII: Vaapad
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Mastered Soresu to its highest extent with variations of Ataru implemented
Count Dooku: Mastered Makashi to its highest extent even before he became sith
Anakin Skywalker: Mastered Djem So before he became sith (as a sith he perfected it to its highest extent)
Plo Koon: Mastered Djem So, just not quite to the extent of Anakin
Ki-Adi Mundi: Mastered Ataru
Kit Fitso: Mastered Shii-cho to its highest extent (making it viable in saber combat)
Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin: like Revan no confirmed mastery of a saber form but were considere to be masters of saber combat
Shaak Ti: combined parts of Ataru and Makashi together into her own style and was considered a master of saber combat
Aayla Secura: Mastered Ataru with some skill in Djem So
Quinlan Vos: Mastered Ataru
Cin Drallig: Mastered every form of saber combat except Juyo

Where i can name few jedi about 4 (but i may have ommited a few) who were masters of saber combat in the OR (and most of them gained their power after becoming sith at some point in their lives) i can name countless jedi who were masters of saber combat in the PT (here i definitely omitted more than a few which makes up for omitting the OR jedi). Need i say more really cause i dont know any better way to show this. Aurbere and Beni have done an excellent job proving this myth as sheer fact but i just feel like building on it.
I am still not satisfied - I still see a lot of opinion - Sure there were some of the most powerful Jedi ever like Yoda, Mace, Anakin etc..... But to say that the PT Jedi as a whole are more powerful than all those that came before it... I just don't know....

I think a lot of these Jedi somewhat 'ride the coat-tails' of the top ones I meantined - when they are clearly not in the Same League - for instance you have the Jedi accompanying Windu who were considered amongst the top duellists of the Jedi Order - they died in SECONDS to Sidious - Windu alone lasted much longer - Proving a great gulf in individual ability between himself and these other so-called top Jedi.... so ability such as Windu, Yoda, Anakin, Obi Wan is still extremely rare even in this era and Should not be used as the 'measuring stick' for the PT Jedi.......
When Jedi of this era are being compared to other Jedi/Sith of other era - I still think it should be done on an Individual Basis and not the blanket 'PT Jedi are the most powerful'

You mentioned quite a lot of Duellists in your list and listed their Accomplishments...
I for instance would take Exar Kun in a fight over most of them

The Weapon master of the PT Era Cin Drallig was a master of 6 styles and had a working knowledge (not mastery of Juyo)
Blademaster Kas'im was a Blademaster from over 1000 years before the PT era and he was a master of ALL 7 styles of Lightsaber combat -and beyond that he individually speciallised in the extremely Rare Duel-Wielding Ataru style.....
Not Only to me is this more impressive than Cin Drallig but the Vast majority of what the PT Jedi achieved in lightsaber combat - Yet people would try to argue that someone like Kit Fisto who essentially just mastered Shii Cho (which is a fundamentally limited style for duelling) could beat him??? - I can't buy that - by the sheer facts alone... especially that a lot of these other styles had specific abilities designed to over come Shii Cho and Kas'im would know ALL of them......
I can see that you are intelligent folk and put together some good arguments - but If you were to be totally honest based on Fact alone - surely someone like Blademaster Kas'im has got to at least make you think about things?
and then that opens up the door for other exceptional individuals from the past......

Also I would like to see the Canon where George Lucas actually says that the PT Jedi are more powerful than every Jedi that came before them - because if it is what he says on the DVD commentary - I think it is open to interpretation.....there has to be some other source out there that unequivocally proves it before I accept it as a fact

and with all due respect - don't just tell me it exists....please show me (and obviously a source from Lucas himself and not wookiepedia)
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Sporadicus's Avatar


Sporadicus
02.25.2013 , 08:22 PM | #69
The Old jedi would be stronger then the new jedi.
If you even use the example that obi-wan and anikin got better as the clone wars went on (which they did and by quite a bit) then the jedi who were always surrounded by wars (so old republic) would be far stronger as a whole. howe can jedi whom have not had to fight any real opponents for a 1000 years be stronger then the ones who have. they can't. and meditating for 1000 years would not beat say exar kunn, revan, sion etc. even the sith have admitted this, can you imagine windu or yoda standing up to bane.. (not that I can imagine anyone for long, not to say that no one could )
50 Juggernaut
50 Sorcerer
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Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.25.2013 , 09:06 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
I am still not satisfied - I still see a lot of opinion - Sure there were some of the most powerful Jedi ever like Yoda, Mace, Anakin etc..... But to say that the PT Jedi as a whole are more powerful than all those that came before it... I just don't know....

I think a lot of these Jedi somewhat 'ride the coat-tails' of the top ones I meantined - when they are clearly not in the Same League - for instance you have the Jedi accompanying Windu who were considered amongst the top duellists of the Jedi Order - they died in SECONDS to Sidious - Windu alone lasted much longer - Proving a great gulf in individual ability between himself and these other so-called top Jedi.... so ability such as Windu, Yoda, Anakin, Obi Wan is still extremely rare even in this era and Should not be used as the 'measuring stick' for the PT Jedi.......
When Jedi of this era are being compared to other Jedi/Sith of other era - I still think it should be done on an Individual Basis and not the blanket 'PT Jedi are the most powerful'

You mentioned quite a lot of Duellists in your list and listed their Accomplishments...
I for instance would take Exar Kun in a fight over most of them

The Weapon master of the PT Era Cin Drallig was a master of 6 styles and had a working knowledge (not mastery of Juyo)
Blademaster Kas'im was a Blademaster from over 1000 years before the PT era and he was a master of ALL 7 styles of Lightsaber combat -and beyond that he individually speciallised in the extremely Rare Duel-Wielding Ataru style.....
Not Only to me is this more impressive than Cin Drallig but the Vast majority of what the PT Jedi achieved in lightsaber combat - Yet people would try to argue that someone like Kit Fisto who essentially just mastered Shii Cho (which is a fundamentally limited style for duelling) could beat him??? - I can't buy that - by the sheer facts alone... especially that a lot of these other styles had specific abilities designed to over come Shii Cho and Kas'im would know ALL of them......
I can see that you are intelligent folk and put together some good arguments - but If you were to be totally honest based on Fact alone - surely someone like Blademaster Kas'im has got to at least make you think about things?
and then that opens up the door for other exceptional individuals from the past......

Also I would like to see the Canon where George Lucas actually says that the PT Jedi are more powerful than every Jedi that came before them - because if it is what he says on the DVD commentary - I think it is open to interpretation.....there has to be some other source out there that unequivocally proves it before I accept it as a fact

and with all due respect - don't just tell me it exists....please show me (and obviously a source from Lucas himself and not wookiepedia)
Like i said Exar Kun's power is timeless, his skill with the blade was so advanced in his time that he beat the jedi's greatest masters at the time, easily. His former master Vodo Baas who was considered the greatest saber duelist of the jedi at the time, was being toyed with throughout his entire duel with Kun. The only PT jedi i see beating Kun would have to be Mace Windu or Yoda, no one else.

Blademaster Kas'im who defeated him again? Darth Bane, the weakest of his Banite line and that was before he reached his prime in power or even became Darth Bane as well. The Brotherhood of Darkness was considered an all time low for sith orders in terms of power. They were so weak that they were unsalvageable and Bane had to destroy them in order to rebuild sith strengh. Sure he may have mastered the 7 forms, but to what degree did he master them? And how well could he implement them?

Kit Fitso mastered Shii-cho to the point where it became viable in terms of overall combat. Also saber skills arent his main focus, he is a consular after all. But he did last longer against Sidious then Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin who specialized and were considered masters in saber combat. Fitso was even able to parry a few blows. I admit Kas'im does look better than Cin Drallig on paper. But Kas'im was great in the weakest sith order to date, and he wasnt even the most powerful in that order to boot.

I enjoy that point on Kas'im, it really makes you think about things although my knowledge on Drallig outside of lightsaber mastery and duel with Vader is a bit vague.