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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.27.2013 , 07:18 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Aurbere, That was me, StarSquirrel you just quoted... So uh, yeah I think that was aimed at Vent. We seem to use similar colors now I guess.

And what you quoted was in reference to the whole "Some Jedi are immune to the Dark Side right?" question in my previous post. I was saying yeah I know they aren't and proceeded to explain why int he next paragraph.
I know you did, I was just adding my input like you asked.

But I'm not very good with colors, so if I misquoted you anywhere, sorry.

I'm getting mixed up here I think. Guess it's mostly fatigue from dealing with this thread.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.27.2013 , 07:27 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I know you did, I was just adding my input like you asked.

But I'm not very good with colors, so if I misquoted you anywhere, sorry.

I'm getting mixed up here I think. Guess it's mostly fatigue from dealing with this thread.
Ah, no problem I understand. I've been in it less than you have and I'm feeling tired with it as well.

Though Vent truly did lead us on a merry chase for a bit until it boiled down to whether he believed our sources or if he'll toss them out again.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.27.2013 , 07:30 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Ah, no problem I understand. I've been in it less than you have and I'm feeling tired with it as well.

Though Vent truly did lead us on a merry chase for a bit until it boiled down to whether he believed our sources or if he'll toss them out again.
Definitely pushed me to the limits of my sanity. I had to go through many of my books for sources and information to prove him wrong.

I'm really tired of this debate. I've gone through it so many times.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.27.2013 , 07:35 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Definitely pushed me to the limits of my sanity. I had to go through many of my books for sources and information to prove him wrong.

I'm really tired of this debate. I've gone through it so many times.
Yeah, heck I rehashed the old "Bane and Rule of Two is stupid" threads to prove the who "Old Sith are better" line wrong again so I wouldn't have to explain it myself.

Thankfully, now that we've done this we can just cite it every time someone asks about PT vs OR. I'd really rather not type all that up again and I can imagine that goes double (or triple) for you and beni.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.27.2013 , 07:39 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Yeah, heck I rehashed the old "Bane and Rule of Two is stupid" threads to prove the who "Old Sith are better" line wrong again so I wouldn't have to explain it myself.

Thankfully, now that we've done this we can just cite it every time someone asks about PT vs OR. I'd really rather not type all that up again and I can imagine that goes double (or triple) for you and beni.
That's the truth. I would hate to type everything I have all over again. Which is one of the reasons why I am done debating this, because I know that I would have to do it again.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
02.27.2013 , 08:38 PM | #116
There are still things that were said that I disgree with - and some that I think are plain wrong:
(and I think I could site some pretty strong Canon that would support my views)
and certain things may be due to a lack of having enough knowledege (by that I mean certain things in the OR may not have been fleshed out that well) - thats why I don't really get involved in Revan vs debates - because I try to base things on actual facts of the specific individuals that are being compared...
When I asked the question - canonically What Lightsaber style or styles did Revan use? neither Revan fanboy or Revan hater could answer that - so as far as I was concerned I didn't have enough to go on to give a genuine comparisson......
but he obviously did have a Lightsaber style (maybe styles) but it hasn't really been delved into that much - I am not sure what style the Exile did either - but if the game is some sort of canon, then she had training in all the styles so conceivably be a master of multiple styles.....but again - I don't know for sure

However - this passage was a reasonable enough concession:

Then consider the myth disproven. PT era Jedi are not demi-gods (though the masters of that era come pretty close) but for average vs average we have conceded that an OR jedi could give a PT Jedi a run for his money in an even purely saber duel. While we still say PT will emerge winner in many, they would not win every fight. Also our insistence that Jedi of the PT era where well versed in so many forms and such where in comparison to the OR order's member's knowledge, not the whole of Jedi knowledge.

And kind of all I really wanted - I just hated the PT Jedi Wall and any kind of debate to just be dismissed out of hand -because PT Jedi would beat any other Jedi/Sith without people actually giving proper analysis to the strengths and weaknesses of the people being compared - And Masters like Kit Fisto for example, to me - would warrant debating in a fair few matchups...

So I am not going to go into any of the things that I may disagree on - and I will leave this debate to rest
We don't want another one of our Savage Opress / General Grievous type of debates on top of all of this.....

I think it was overall handled well by everyone and nothing ever got personal - So hey it's all cool
I could kind of see where Ventessel was coming from - and good on him too for asking the questions - I would take him on as my Apprentice in a 'Rule of Two' Sith Order (Obviously I have to be the Master)

ps. and a Welcome back to Rayla - while I may not always agree - I do learn a hell of a lot of stuff from her posts (same with Aubere and Beni)
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.27.2013 , 08:46 PM | #117
What am I chopped liver? But eh, have nothing really to add at this point.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
02.27.2013 , 08:56 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
What am I chopped liver? But eh, have nothing really to add at this point.
Lol sorry Wolfninjajedi - you as well....... I guess its just that Ninja part - you temporarily evaded my perception you are like eeer... a Shadow... a Shadow in the night (and that's worth 2 cigars)
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.27.2013 , 11:35 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Strange. I have not seen 'size matters not' on a fortune cookiee. You must tell me where you get your fortune cookiees.
From the shadier establishments in Shangai, but not so shady that they water down the tequila (if you pay American).

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
How about General Grievous? He's a living weapon and yet he's been bested by the Jedi that have no experience. And trust me, Grievous has plenty of experience.
YOU: Cyborgs don't count!
I would appreciate if you refrained from putting words in my mouth.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Maybe if you knew the circumstance of the Geonosis Arena, you wouldn't be so quick to judge. How many droids were they fighting? Thousands? Two hundred Jedi vs. thousands of droids. And like you said, many of them practiced Niman. Does this suddenly make them inferior? No. Considering how badly they were outnumbered, I'd say that it is no surprise that many Jedi were killed.
This gets back to my earlier points about instinct and experience. There is a certain tactical know-how which comes with combat experience, which is not all about how fast and accurate you are with a weapon, but rather in your spacing and placement throughout an engagement. The Jedi fought poorly, not on an individual level so much as on a unit level. They allowed themselves to be surrounded and on the low ground. Experienced troops don't let that happen.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I did that with Satele and Yoda, and you ranted about me not having proof. Well the proof is in the pudding. I compared an OR Grand Master with a PT Grand Master and proved the latter's superiority. You then ranted that they never fought and thus it could not be proven.
The same argument can be used against you. A PT Jedi and an OR Jedi never fought, and thus victory for either side can not be proven. You basically killed this debate with that argument.
I am against judging an entire order based on the comparison of two unique individuals. I am not opposed to a hypothetical comparison of "average knight vs. average knight" because this minimizes the outside variables aside from training and experience. Think of it as the distillation of a particular generation's experience.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
I needed to put these together for the sake of everyone else. DEAR GOD MAN, did you read anything I said? I practically screamed that sith are better saber combatants. The Jedi of the OR era seem so great partially (certainly not wholly) because of their brushes with the Dark Side. Yes! yes of course Jedi in war can draw from the Dark Side. The problem is we're discussing Jedi, not Sith. If someone falls they are no longer a Jedi. Thus, if a former Jedi turned Sith becomes a powerful duelist, he is not a 'Jedi' duelist and representative of the OR era 'Jedi'. He's a Sith swordsman and should be treated as such, his power and training by that point are of the Dark Side and it isn't Jedi teachings that made him powerful. Cin Drallig lost because he was facing Anakin who was both far more powerful in the force and as already stated, an amazing duelist himself.
Ah, and now I begin to understand your reasoning. If we make that consideration, then many of your arguments fall into a different light. This is a line of reasoning I can agree with, then.

But, then there's this...

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Mace Windu's Vaapad form allowed him to use the Dark Side as a tool for the Light. Luke Skywalker is Luke Skywalker.
How do these concepts reconcile themselves with the Jedi philosophy as a whole?

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
I should have stopped here. If you can't respect Yoda, your knowledge of the Jedi Order and the abilities of its members is poor or heavily biased to the point that it would be ridiculous to argue this at all.
There is no iron law that I must respect Yoda because others consider him wise. His mastery of the Force is impressive, and while I wouldn't use that word to describe his crack-monkey combat style, it is effective in its own way. But wise, Master Yoda is not. We'll debate that some other time, though...

In my opinion, Jedi like Jolee Bindo and Luke Skywalker (in his later, mature years) demonstrate actual wisdom. I like this quotation that you picked out, it's one of those rare moments when a fictional character makes a statement that is genuinely timeless and true.


"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil."
―Luke Skywalker, near the beginning of the Second Galactic Civil War


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
So you would have the Jedi abandon their beliefs to make themselves better warriors? You remind me of a young Jedi, tainted by war and willing to do whatever it takes to win.
I would indeed. Admittedly, I would make a unconventional Jedi, since I spent my formative years being taught that there was no substitute for Victory (with a capital "V") and having the mantra "it pays to be a winner" instilled in me. I admire Mace Windu's willingness to channel aggression when fighting because I have been taught that you either fight, or you do not. (Do, or do not. Just apply that to killing and you've got my combat philosophy in a nutshell) And sometimes, you'll want prisoners, necessitating nonlethal weapons.

Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
I think it was overall handled well by everyone and nothing ever got personal - So hey it's all cool
I could kind of see where Ventessel was coming from - and good on him too for asking the questions - I would take him on as my Apprentice in a 'Rule of Two' Sith Order (Obviously I have to be the Master)
An interesting proposition, but aside from my opinion that the "Rule of Two" was more of a stop-gap measure (and frequently violated by its adherents), you would find that I am much more of a Grey Jedi.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Then consider the myth disproven. PT era Jedi are not demi-gods (though the masters of that era come pretty close) but for average vs average we have conceded that an OR jedi could give a PT Jedi a run for his money in an even purely saber duel. While we still say PT will emerge winner in many, they would not win every fight. Also our insistence that Jedi of the PT era where well versed in so many forms and such where in comparison to the OR order's member's knowledge, not the whole of Jedi knowledge.
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
However - this passage was a reasonable enough concession:
And kind of all I really wanted - I just hated the PT Jedi Wall and any kind of debate to just be dismissed out of hand -because PT Jedi would beat any other Jedi/Sith without people actually giving proper analysis to the strengths and weaknesses of the people being compared
Precisely. I sense a kindred spirit in you, fellblade. This "Wall" that you're talking about is essentially the myth I've been railing against during this debate.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.28.2013 , 03:13 AM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
PS: Yeh, I'm back.
Rayla's back! Or should I say 'LadyKulvak?' Lol, trust me to get into a heated debate with you as soon as you come back, and then get slapped down. Its a shame you missed the Kaggath, you make good points about Traya and I reckon you would of added a lot to that debate.

But now I have to ask? Where is MasterMe?