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Madness 2.0


Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
02.22.2013 , 05:06 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Elvandar View Post

My second complaint is regarding an Assassin talent called Bloodletting which basically increases deathfield and dot damage by 15% on targets under 30% health. You can think of it as a periodic execute ability. My complaint is simply that we don't have it. This is something we would really benefit from, but it was given to Asssasins despite them already having an extremely strong execute skill. I feel like having this talent would really round off the spec into a near perfect state for Sorcs. One of the issues madness has always had, for example when killing healers, is once we've gotten them very low our damage is just too slow to put them down before they pop an emergency heal or cooldown and they just hold on for dear life until someone helps them or someone helps you. It's fine to outheal some damage, but our constant damage shouldn't be outhealed indefinitely. This talent would help eliminate that problem entirely. I can't understand for the life of me why this was given to Assassins.

Overall I'm very much looking forward to Sorcerers feeling powerful again. It's been a long time since any of us felt like we filled that epic Palpatine role. Anybody who's wondering about the state of Sorcerers, here it is plain and simple. Things are looking up. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but... Good job Bioware. You may not have fixed the class indefinitely, but it's definitely more than viable again.
Since maras are laughing about how rage is now incredibly strong and didn't get any meaningful nerf, I do not share your optimism and fully expect knights and warriors to continue roflstomping wzs.

They've not given us shroud, they've taken away instant whirlwind, the couldn't be bothered to make it so our dots don't break the whirlwind either. And like you say they give a class with an execute something that should have been given to sorcs.

Force bubble is meh. I'd much rather have had a straight damage reflection for 4s then that useless ability. But no they give that sort of thing to Juggs, like they need ANOTHER defensive. They already take forever to kill, even in dps specs.

So no, I don't share your optimism, but hey things are looking up for everyone except Sorcs. Good right?

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.22.2013 , 06:31 AM | #12
So after looking at the PTS tree and thinking from a PvE perspective i agree with TomWolp that its interesting.

The changes done for Lightning Strike make it easy to fit in our rotations in Operations when you already have Deathmark and dots on a target and dont want to use Crushing Darkness. Giving us an additional smaller dot with Lightning Burn, while doesnt make a huge difference, is an appreciated bonus now from LS. The alacrity boost is an alacrity boost not much else there. I do like that they reformed Forror Horrors to affect all our dots as well. I see a fairly average dps boost there in PvE though i wont say its on even with everyone else.

From a PvP perspective all i have to say is SSDD. And honestly BW no insta-whirlwind? Are you all just Maras and Juggs???? Cause Wrath+ChainLightning wasn't enough? Loss of 360 knockback not enough? What's next huh? Gonna give us a cast bar for Affliction? I just don't understand it they might as well just give Sorcs a toolbelt if they want us to be utility so badly. At the very least you made Deathfield hit 5ppl now but I doubt we will be able to hit at least 5k with it right?

All in all (IMO) Madness seems to have become slightly better in the PvE department but in PvP its the same. And I really like the changes done with Lightning Strike.



R.I.P. Instant Whirlwind
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut

FrumpytheClown's Avatar


FrumpytheClown
02.22.2013 , 06:37 AM | #13
I don't like to use the PTS because it means I have to play the same content over again. Plus the story spoilers. However, with the changes made to Madness I have to say I am happy with the damage increase we are getting, or "effectiveness" might be a better word.
I am with some though, that Sins were far too powerful to begin with and giving them an Execute type ability just adds to their OP already. And yes, losing the instant cast to our Whirl Wind is a blow to our guts, but what about the previous nerf, cutting our Electrocute range down to 10 meters. Last I checked, we are ranged and very squishy, so what would compell Bioware to think cutting down our CC's range down would be a good thing?
Yes, our damage effectiveness is increased but over all we are not done yet being fixed. I am happy with the progress, but await further repair.
I still love my Madness Sorc, but I also have learned to work with what I have.

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
02.22.2013 , 07:02 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
So after looking at the PTS tree and thinking from a PvE perspective i agree with TomWolp that its interesting.

The changes done for Lightning Strike make it easy to fit in our rotations in Operations when you already have Deathmark and dots on a target and dont want to use Crushing Darkness. Giving us an additional smaller dot with Lightning Burn, while doesnt make a huge difference, is an appreciated bonus now from LS. The alacrity boost is an alacrity boost not much else there. I do like that they reformed Forror Horrors to affect all our dots as well. I see a fairly average dps boost there in PvE though i wont say its on even with everyone else.

From a PvP perspective all i have to say is SSDD. And honestly BW no insta-whirlwind? Are you all just Maras and Juggs???? Cause Wrath+ChainLightning wasn't enough? Loss of 360 knockback not enough? What's next huh? Gonna give us a cast bar for Affliction? I just don't understand it they might as well just give Sorcs a toolbelt if they want us to be utility so badly. At the very least you made Deathfield hit 5ppl now but I doubt we will be able to hit at least 5k with it right?

All in all (IMO) Madness seems to have become slightly better in the PvE department but in PvP its the same. And I really like the changes done with Lightning Strike.



R.I.P. Instant Whirlwind

Yes, the more i test madness in 2.0 the more i agree that the light strike buff and other minor DPS buffs are a godsend to PvE, but they dont change our predictament in PvP.

As to Force Management, i think theres a terrible missunderstanding going on. So, we have to spend points on the talent that makes our force pool go to 600, then spend points on the talent that makes our spells have reduced cost, then we advance to 2nd tier of lightning and still have to spend 2 points on the subversion. Thats 7 skill points plus 3 from efficacy on the madness tree.

THATS 10 SKILL POINTS SPENT ON TALENTS THAT DO NOT HELP OUR DAMAGE, DO NOT GIVE US DEFENSES OR UTILITY AND MADNESS STILL HAS THE 2ND WORSE ENERGY MANAGEMENT IN THE WHOLE GAME, ONLY COMPARED TO CONCEALMENT OPS

Its lame design if i ever saw it. These talents are mere "point tax", they should be made baseline or they should be merged with talents that give us extra damage / healing / protection. Its a HUGE design flaw and its being carried over to 2.0.

No other class in the game has to spend 10 talent points to still have bad energy management, no, they can actually spend their points on talents that makes them stronger, one of the reason madness (and sorcs in general) are subpar and the devs arent adressing it.
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.22.2013 , 07:49 AM | #15
Im assuming you are talking about the 3 useless defense abilities (=6pts) in the madness tree that noone should even think of puttings in. Unless you also mean "Electric Induction" which lowers force cost blah blah blah.

Anyways ive been able to make a mock Full Madness 3/7/36 tree that im assuming will be the general tree used by madness sorcs now in both pvp and pve. The 7pts in Lightning imo are up to how much force reservation you want. You can put the points into "Reserves" for more force but i dont think theextra 100 makes a big difference. I would strongly advice against putting any points in "Subversion" because you can only use the regen boost through LS. A point or 2 in "Convection" would be better to increase the power of LS and CD (2%/4%)
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut

Elvandar's Avatar


Elvandar
02.22.2013 , 08:30 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
No other class in the game has to spend 10 talent points to still have bad energy management, no, they can actually spend their points on talents that makes them stronger, one of the reason madness (and sorcs in general) are subpar and the devs arent adressing it.
If you've tried 2.0 madness and are still running out of force then you're doing something very very wrong. I have struggled to even intentionally give myself force problems. Management is not an issue at all in 2.0. Hell for Lightning even spamming heals I was unable to drop lower than 97%.

As to people saying it's still poor at pvp I'd like to disagree with that. Madness as it is on live is a very good spec for PVP if played correctly, it's main problem is simply we lack the burst pvp requires. On the PTS the only classes I've had trouble beating 1v1 (which is generally tougher on us than mass pvp) are stealthers. I was able to handle every other class with ease including a high rated marauder with fully augmented elite war hero (compared to my half augmented regular war hero). Suffice to say the likes of Marauders and Pyros feel far less of a threat to us now. Thanks to the general damage boost we are finally a proper kiting class, where as in the past kiting didn't do much at all.

While its true 2.0 madness has stayed as a "sustained" damage spec, the increase to that sustained damage combined with the new use for lightning strike is enough to put a lot of pressure on the enemy. I have no doubt the loss of our instant CC will hinder us in PVP, but with the exception of that change, Madness has improved leaps and bounds across the board. At this point all I could ask for is some form of execute ability or talent since that is something we seriously lack, while Assassins now have two execute oriented things included in their class.

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
02.22.2013 , 08:40 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Elvandar View Post
If you've tried 2.0 madness and are still running out of force then you're doing something very very wrong. I have struggled to even intentionally give myself force problems. Management is not an issue at all in 2.0. Hell for Lightning even spamming heals I was unable to drop lower than 97%.
What changed in force management from 1.7 to 2.0?

You still go OOF faster than any other class in the game in "mid node" fights unless you intend to die and respawn every 2 minutes.
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.22.2013 , 08:57 AM | #18
Madness 2.0 just seems as similar as it is now for pvp. I can see force management being less a problem than now but judging from the tree Madness just looks the same. Any change of partcular sorts is no more instawhirlwind, force barrier, and increased movement if you use polarity shift from tree ability. I guess between CT, Electricute, Force Slow/Lightning, Surging Speed, Force Barrier, etc we became better at kiting. Still im not saying its gotten worse for pvp but im not saying its gotten much better either. Seems mostly same to me
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut

Elvandar's Avatar


Elvandar
02.22.2013 , 09:00 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
You still go OOF faster than any other class in the game in "mid node" fights unless you intend to die and respawn every 2 minutes.
I'm not sure exactly what has changed regarding force management, but it feels far less starved as full Madness.

If you are multi dotting sure you'll go OOF quickly. If you don't multi dot so much you wont run out of force, it's as simple as that. If you go ahead and stick to single target you'll find you shouldn't have any force issues even over long fights.

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.22.2013 , 09:19 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Elvandar View Post
I'm not sure exactly what has changed regarding force management, but it feels far less starved as full Madness.

If you are multi dotting sure you'll go OOF quickly. If you don't multi dot so much you wont run out of force, it's as simple as that. If you go ahead and stick to single target you'll find you shouldn't have any force issues even over long fights.
I will say that from the tree and such we can go about 3 dotted targets without much force loss there. Hit both with DF, mark em with Afflictions, mark 1 with CT and with Wrath mark the other with CD or CT if its off cooldown. You can even use LS new mini dot to help out.

Like i said the changes make Madness moderately better but i dont think it makes a large jump in the whole scheme of things.

*cough* still waiting for BW to make Deathfield an AoE dot *cough*
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut