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Tank Assassin Armor Rating Nerfed Again?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Tank Assassin Armor Rating Nerfed Again?

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
02.21.2013 , 05:26 AM | #1
I was just on the PTS checking out the new skill trees and I saw that the skill tree talent "Eye of The Storm" no longer increases armor rating by an extra 20%, it only allows spike to be used out of stealth.

I read the descriptions of every one of the talents in the Darkness tree, as well as the lower tier talents in the other 2 trees, but none of them increase the armor anywhere else. There's insulation in the Deception tree, but it only increases armor rating while in lightning charge/surging charge, so it's not going to do anything for dark charge.

So without that 20% boost, the previous full black hole/campaign armor rating of ~6000 while in tank spec is now going to be ~5000, around that of a typical heavy armor dps class.

The only change that I've seen that could possibly "offset" this is the new addition of 25% damage reduction and 5% more hp while Overcharge Saber is active.....an ability that is on a 2 minute cooldown. It seems like this is going to make tanking a lot harder and greatly reduce survivability, especially if spamming overcharge saber every 2 minutes is supposed to offset the lower armor.

So now Tank Assassins are basically going to have about 3000-4000 less armor than the other 2 tanks, no buff to self heals that I could see, and this is "balanced".....?

Uh, thoughts on this? Any responses from a developer would be greatly appreciated
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HighCounsil's Avatar


HighCounsil
02.21.2013 , 05:28 AM | #2
If you followed leaked changes it's been known for quite some time. Anyway, PTS exists for testing. Run through some content, submit detailed reports and you will be heard.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
02.21.2013 , 05:39 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by HighCounsil View Post
If you followed leaked changes it's been known for quite some time. Anyway, PTS exists for testing. Run through some content, submit detailed reports and you will be heard.
I read the initial posts on reddit, but I guess I missed this one. If they move Insulation to the bottom of the tank tree and allow it to increase armor rating by 20% for all 3 charges, then it will at least keep things where they are now in terms of armor rating, at least for tank dark charge.

Though, if this has been leaked for a while and it made it to the pts, I'm guessing that this was an intentional change and reports probably aren't going to change it.

So....Tank Assassins are going to have to rely even more on the already meager self-heals and just use overcharge saber as a defensive cooldown?... I really don't see how that's balanced though, it seems like Assassins are just going to be taking a ton more damage for 1min 45secs out of every 2mins, then a ton less for 15 seconds. But hey, at least we'll get a good 30-45secs of every boss fight on par with the other 2 tanks....provided we can stay up during the 1m45s in between each use of overcharge saber. <.<

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prodigyqnz's Avatar


prodigyqnz
02.21.2013 , 07:12 AM | #4
You have to play on PTS dont read and start making blind calculations.. My Shadow on PTS is still in old 146 rating gear.. and I have 5618 Armoring Rating and 32.64 Damage reduction. So imagine what it will be once i actually put on some gear fit for a Level 55.. Calculation formulas have been altered due to the level increase. Please stop speculating and complaining without having tried it.. The PTS is there so they can get feedback and get it right..
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SOULCASTER's Avatar


SOULCASTER
02.21.2013 , 07:19 AM | #5
I would imagine they are doing this because shield generators now actually are useful and will help mitigate a lot more damage. So I think losing the 20% armor rating doesn't sound that horrible tbh. I haven't tested it though.
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SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
02.21.2013 , 07:50 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by prodigyqnz View Post
You have to play on PTS dont read and start making blind calculations.. My Shadow on PTS is still in old 146 rating gear.. and I have 5618 Armoring Rating and 32.64 Damage reduction. So imagine what it will be once i actually put on some gear fit for a Level 55.. Calculation formulas have been altered due to the level increase. Please stop speculating and complaining without having tried it.. The PTS is there so they can get feedback and get it right..
been trying to get my main assassin copied over for a day, not working. I copied over my lowbie shadow and zerged to lvl 55, but I don't have any endgame gear on him, so hard to say what the rating is.

So to be clear, this isn't speculating and complaining, I'm simply pointing out that we just lost a skill tree talent that boosted armor by 20%.

So my point is, if you get the r33t new top tier gear and let's say you get your armor rating back to ~6100, Juggs and PTs are now likely going to have ~10,000-12,000 armor.

The new shield mechanics may help, yes, but if the other 2 tanks have 2-3 times more armor AND the same shield mechanics, then it's pretty clear which tank is going to be the least desirable/least survivable.

And if you now have ~32% damage reduction in black hole gear, where it was ~40% before, ouch, just ouch.

More Armor = more damage reduction. And again, spamming an ability with a 2min cooldown to get an extra 25% damage reduction to be where the other 2 tanks are still likely above probably isn't going to cut it for tanking new content.
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HighCounsil's Avatar


HighCounsil
02.21.2013 , 07:51 AM | #7
You have +15% shield chance tho with the ward + additional 5% with set bonus.

The only other tank (of three obviously) that gets somewhere close in shield chance here is a VG, but vgs have 0 defense whereas shadows innately have a ton. It's too soon to complain until it's been throughly tested. Shield mechanic change might play greatly with kinetic/dark wards.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
02.21.2013 , 08:09 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by HighCounsil View Post
You have +15% shield chance tho with the ward + additional 5% with set bonus.

The only other tank (of three obviously) that gets somewhere close in shield chance here is a VG, but vgs have 0 defense whereas shadows innately have a ton. It's too soon to complain until it's been throughly tested. Shield mechanic change might play greatly with kinetic/dark wards.
The Shield changes are definitely a step in the right direction to help tanking, both in pve and pvp (guessing more people will play tanks now), but my concern is that the attacks that AREN'T shielded are now going to hit shadow/assassin tanks significantly harder.

And I mean really, for a "tank class" to have little more armor than a heavy armor dps class, that's more than a little odd. And if the argument from bioware is going to be, "well, it's a light armor class to begin with, compared to the other 2 tanks that are heavy armor classes," then why did they give a light armor class a tanking tree?

When people first rolled Assassins for tanking, their armor rating was equal to the other 2 tanks (with the exception of the vanguard armor buff on top of the stance buff), then they got nerfed because of dps tanksins in pvp, and now they're nerfed again? still because of dps tanksins in pvp? If so, then just nerf the freaking damage output, don't nerf the survivability!

Hell, depending on what gear level, it's entirely possible that a well geared commando healer is going to have More armor than a moderately geared shadow tank.

So yeah, if attacks that don't get shielded have the possibility hitting a shadow tank harder than a commando healer/dps, there seems to be little reason to keep playing the class in that role.

If the above is correct, then the best tank in terms of survivability is likely going to be vanguard/powertech, with a ton of armor and a ton of shielding skills.
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feelingtheblanks's Avatar


feelingtheblanks
02.21.2013 , 09:31 AM | #9
This must be a mistake tbh like the people with 600k hp in warzones.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
02.21.2013 , 10:54 AM | #10
okay, so it looks like this is an intentional armor nerf:

Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
Even without this change, an increase of 5 levels warrants a re-evaluation of everything (survivability, single target damage, aoe damage, single target threat, aoe threat, single target healing, aoe healing, etc). Re-evaluations usually mean changes. In this case you're seeing a rebalance - not a nerf.

Literally every skill tree has been re-evaluated and rebalanced, not just yours.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...65#post5889865

So I guess PVP wise, with 20% less armor, all you Assassins/Shadows can expect to get smashed for the same amount as Mercs/Commandos do.

Tank Class No More, it seems.

Further Clarification:

Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
I understand that it's very natural to focus on individual details, but when we're balancing specs and roles, what really matters is the final result. That's not to say that the details don't matter, but they are overshadowed by the final result.

The final result, to be perfectly clear, is that all tank roles are achieving target TTD (time til death) in our internal tests. It's part of our daily routine to make sure that's the case. Now, I don't mean to suggest that bugs don't happen (they do), but this particular detail is not a bug and is part of the bigger picture.

As always, if it turns out that, in reality, any one spec is underperforming (in this case, you die too quickly or are too hard to heal), we will not hesitate to make the necessary adjustments. Right now, what we're getting are gut reactions to one change amongst a sea of changes. This doesn't help me or my team in identifying balance issues. If Shadow/Assassin tanks have survivability problems, we need to see the numbers. Even though we already have our own sets of numbers (a lot of them), we don't perform *every* test or test against *every* kind of enemy/boss/spec. That's where numbers from you guys can be instrumental in helping us identify an issue if an issue exists.


TLDR: This was an intended change, and by our measure, it gave us the intended result. To be direct, the intended result is that all tank roles hit the same survivability targets, which is what we are seeing internally. If that isn't the case in reality (because there are so many more variables in the real game than in our tests), then we will act as quickly as we can to fix it.

Thanks everyone. Keep the feedback coming.
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