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Re-visiting the Battle of Hoth: General Rieekan vs General Veers!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Re-visiting the Battle of Hoth: General Rieekan vs General Veers!

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.25.2013 , 09:53 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by SNCommand View Post
But what's the point then? You're artificially downsizing Veers forces and boosting those of Rieekan to produce a victory for the Alliance, it would be better then to choose a battlefield with two commanders on equal footing
Because 9 AT-ATs is overkill, and I ain't boosting Rieekan at all. In the OP I did say he has access to the entirety of Echo Base and people are underestimating the RA all the time.

Edit: Alright I added 1 AT-AT for Veers so he has 4 now, Rieekan has only 4 Snowspeeders to use and 4 AT-APs, no anti-batteries however the Specforce still has the heavy weapons and trenches around Echo Base.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

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SNCommand
02.25.2013 , 10:23 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Because 9 AT-ATs is overkill, and I ain't boosting Rieekan at all. In the OP I did say he has access to the entirety of Echo Base and people are underestimating the RA all the time.
But if one commander has access to all his units shouldn't the other one have it as well? 9 AT-ATs are overkill yes, but if the Imperial military had a field manual it would be named "The Art of Overkill"

The battle between Rieekan and General Veers was always supposed to be one sided as one commander was on the defensive, out manned and out gunned by his adversary, the Rebels had few victories when their enemy was prepared

A better alternative would be to ask who would win in a battle betweeen Rieekan and Veers if both sides were seemingly equal in strength, a question of who's the better leader, now it's just a question of who brought the most guns
Quote: Originally Posted by Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
Personally I would slap Georges hands away from the editing desk, give him a colouring book and then remake the entire prequel trilogy so that Darth Vader uses the force to win breakdance competitions and chokes to death anyone who utters the word midichlorians.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.25.2013 , 10:39 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by SNCommand View Post
But if one commander has access to all his units shouldn't the other one have it as well? 9 AT-ATs are overkill yes, but if the Imperial military had a field manual it would be named "The Art of Overkill"

The battle between Rieekan and General Veers was always supposed to be one sided as one commander was on the defensive, out manned and out gunned by his adversary, the Rebels had few victories when their enemy was prepared

A better alternative would be to ask who would win in a battle betweeen Rieekan and Veers if both sides were seemingly equal in strength, a question of who's the better leader, now it's just a question of who brought the most guns
Not really, Veers still has the technological advantage and numbers, it just isn't so heavily one sided now. Those AT-TEs aren't as heavily armored as an AT-AT, most of what Rieekan has can be taken down with what Veers has got. Rieekan and his men just need to really worry in how to take down the AT-ATs, and by when they do they still would have to deal with the other forces that Veers has.

I also toned down Rieekan's forces, he just has the trenches around Echo Base and 4 Snowspeeders. Infact, I drastically cut Rieekan's forces, Echo Base at its peak had 7,500 combat/command personal and inside the base I only gave him 600 Rebel Troops.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.25.2013 , 12:35 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Alright am limiting Veers' AT-ATs to just 3, in hindsight I probably should have realized just how powerful they really are so ya there are only 3 now. Though Beni don't forget, the Wilderness Fighters do have heavy weapons for this scenario and just because Rogue Squadron isn't here doesn't mean the pilots can't take out the AT-ATs.

Along with the Wilderness Fighters and their heavy weapons, neck shots are also a weak point in an AT-AT as is the underbelly. Also don't forget that the AT-XTs have a plasma deflector shield, they may not be able to move much faster then the AT-TE but they make up for it with a defense capability something which the AT-STs lack.

Also again, no aerial strikes...Veers just has his ground forces here.
OK, well that kinda sucks (I understand your reasons), but I'll fight on! One thing that should be considered is the following:

The walker's strong external 9095-T8511 grade durasteel armor was virtually impervious to all but the heaviest of artillery weapons. ~ Wookieepedia.

So that means that nothing short of missle launchers and mass driver cannons are going to penetrate those defenses - Rieekan has 5 units that can dish out that kind of firepower - all his other tanks will be useless. Most likely those units will engage the walkers (who have the advantage of range and height) while the rest of Vieekan's forces tackle the other units. The HAVws and AT-TEs will soon be destroyed, they are outmatched in every respect, and then Veers can turn his attention to the flagging remaining rebel forces.

I reckon, if Veers plays his cards right, he can preserve at least one AT-AT. And that will be enough to raze the Rebel's base. Another tactic Veers can deploy is have one or two of his HAVws cut off the Rebel hangar and destroy it, prevented snowspeeders from being deployed. Given these units speed (160 km/h), the ability to roll right over the enemy and its superconducting armour, I reckon they can get through any defences the Rebels will have prepared for them, and that removes a significant advantage for Vieekan.

But lets say all the AT-ATs are destroyed, Veers can still seal off the hangar with HAVws, and attack the Rebels from two fronts (basing this off my knowledge of Battlefront as well ). If the rebels are losing the battle, their forces will be significantly depleted, and Veers already outnumbers Rieekan in terms of ground troops. So Veers will storm Echo Base from two fronts and tear the Rebels apart. Aurbere says traps, but what traps exactly? Collapsing caves? Cave-ins isn't going to be enough to defeat 2,000+ of the Empire's elite.

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Aurbere
02.25.2013 , 12:45 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
. Aurbere says traps, but what traps exactly? Collapsing caves? Cave-ins isn't going to be enough to defeat 2,000+ of the Empire's elite.
Remember those two bridges that lead to the back hangar of Echo Base? He can blow them up (some stupid snowtrooper will probably fall into the bottomless crevasse and do the Wilhelm scream ). This would force Veers to follow only one path, and I think that path would cut his troops off from any remaining AT-ATs.

So it would basically be Snowtroopers + any vehicles that can climb that slope vs. whatever Rieekan has left + the ability of knowing where your enemy is coming from. Point the turrets over there and gun them down as they pop up. The rebels will have cover and the Snowtroopers will be out in the open.

But if the AT-AT can get over that slope... Rebels=destroyed.
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

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Wolfninjajedi
02.25.2013 , 12:49 PM | #26
Ben you seem to be just focusing on the vehicles here, but what is stopping the Specforce from halting the HAVWs with their heavy weapons as they come in? Not to mention they too have the same HAVWs, so they could infact take theirs and also flank the Imperial forces and take down the AT-ATs rather quickly(the HAVWs are armed heavy so they could take out an AT-AT with a couple of neck shots). There is also the trenches to consider that are around the Base, those trenches seem pretty deep and the wheeled vehicles could be in trouble if they go right on it cause they could actually crash right in the trench unless they find another way around.

There is also the mass drivers on the AT-TE's and AT-APs could also infact target and take out the Imps HAVWs as they come around. The motors on the AT-XTs could also do some damage, or have the vehicles be moving so fast that they could tip them over if the driver tries to pull anything too extreme. There is also the MPTLs to worry about too, so the Imps HAVWs will have a hard time getting to the base, defensive advantage goes to Rieekan here and that is always a factor in a battle.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

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Beniboybling
02.25.2013 , 03:52 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Remember those two bridges that lead to the back hangar of Echo Base?
Remember the massive entrance to the back hangar, guarded by a single turret? I also don't recall a slope. Nonetheless it will be no trouble for a HAV - a troop transport that can stage an assault on the hangar - effectively surrounding the rebels.
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Ben you seem to be just focusing on the vehicles here, but what is stopping the Specforce from halting the HAVWs with their heavy weapons as they come in? Not to mention they too have the same HAVWs, so they could infact take theirs and also flank the Imperial forces and take down the AT-ATs rather quickly(the HAVWs are armed heavy so they could take out an AT-AT with a couple of neck shots). There is also the trenches to consider that are around the Base, those trenches seem pretty deep and the wheeled vehicles could be in trouble if they go right on it cause they could actually crash right in the trench unless they find another way around.

There is also the mass drivers on the AT-TE's and AT-APs could also infact target and take out the Imps HAVWs as they come around. The motors on the AT-XTs could also do some damage, or have the vehicles be moving so fast that they could tip them over if the driver tries to pull anything too extreme. There is also the MPTLs to worry about too, so the Imps HAVWs will have a hard time getting to the base, defensive advantage goes to Rieekan here and that is always a factor in a battle.
There are two problems this plan of attack:

  1. The AT-ATs have the advantage of range and height, despite the speeds that the HAWs can move at, the AT-ATs will be targeting maximum firepower on those units as they trundle towards them. Two will be easily destroyed before they get in range, and lets not forget in a full on charge into enemy lines they will be vulnerable to attacks from troops and other units.

  2. The big hitters will be focused on the the AT-ATs, making it alot easier for the fast HAWs to evade them, which also look designed to trundle over trenches.

IMO it would take two AT-ATs to take out those HAWs, and would do so before they get close enough. Meanwhile the third and fourth and focus on the AT-TEs and MPTLs (which have minimal shielding.) Once those are out the rebel forces will fall under heavy fire, and be too occupied to mount an effective offensive on the HAWs which have powerful short range capablities and missles/grenades that can be dumped in trenches before trundling over them.

P.S. Guys, respect the OP - I don't think limiting walkers to 3 is ridiculous at all and am more than happy to accept that rule. Its his debate, his rules. If you don't like it, make your own debate and we'll see how it fares.

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Aurbere
02.25.2013 , 04:14 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Remember the massive entrance to the back hangar, guarded by a single turret? I also don't recall a slope. Nonetheless it will be no trouble for a HAV - a troop transport that can stage an assault on the hangar - effectively surrounding the rebels.

The back entrance to the Hangar leads to the Rebel shuttles outside of the base (I'm unsure about that part being actually canon being that I am drawing Echo Base's layout from BF2). So the rebels have a set-up outside of Echo Base, guarded by several turrets and whatever Rieekan sets up back there as last line of defense. He would be foolish to put all of his heavy equipment up front and not make a backup plan.

Now IIRC, there is a second set of tunnels that leads to the back hangar, but can be dealt with through cave-ins.

There is a ridge that surrounds the Rebel staging area. That is the slope that I am talking about. The Imperials would have to climb it in order to get at the Rebel staging area. They could probably do this with the HAVs, which would allow the Snow Troopers easy access to the back area.

Personally, I don't know if these scenarios are viable as we are both judging off of the Battlefront 2 map. But, you know, I think the Empire could win this regardless. I think it depends on if Rieekan makes a backup plan (revolving around the ambiguously canon staging area). But you certainly have made an impressive case for the Empire, very difficult to counter. I guess that's what happens when your debate mode has been on standby for the longest time.

But I do agree with Wolf that the Wilderness troops could change the game.

Edit: It has been forever since I played Battlefront 2, so I may be spewing nonsense. Go ahead and call me out on it if you know for sure.
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

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Wolfninjajedi
02.25.2013 , 04:37 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Remember the massive entrance to the back hangar, guarded by a single turret? I also don't recall a slope. Nonetheless it will be no trouble for a HAV - a troop transport that can stage an assault on the hangar - effectively surrounding the rebels.
There are two problems this plan of attack:

  1. The AT-ATs have the advantage of range and height, despite the speeds that the HAWs can move at, the AT-ATs will be targeting maximum firepower on those units as they trundle towards them. Two will be easily destroyed before they get in range, and lets not forget in a full on charge into enemy lines they will be vulnerable to attacks from troops and other units.

  2. The big hitters will be focused on the the AT-ATs, making it alot easier for the fast HAWs to evade them, which also look designed to trundle over trenches.

IMO it would take two AT-ATs to take out those HAWs, and would do so before they get close enough. Meanwhile the third and fourth and focus on the AT-TEs and MPTLs (which have minimal shielding.) Once those are out the rebel forces will fall under heavy fire, and be too occupied to mount an effective offensive on the HAWs which have powerful short range capablities and missles/grenades that can be dumped in trenches before trundling over them.

P.S. Guys, respect the OP - I don't think limiting walkers to 3 is ridiculous at all and am more than happy to accept that rule. Its his debate, his rules. If you don't like it, make your own debate and we'll see how it fares.
But ah ha, the Snowspeeders could trip up the AT-ATs as they are distracted with the Rebels HAVWs using the towcables and take the AT-ATs out of the fight for this. Remember the Snowspeeders are small targets and hard to hit, an AT-AT literally needs to stop moving and actually aim its cannons to effectively hit a Snowspeeder(as evident in ESB when that one AT-AT stood and blasted a Snowspeeder right out of the sky) or unless the Snowspeeders fly directly at them which is what Luke and Wedge did and thus Luke got hit.

There is still the matter of even if the AT-TEs and MPTLs are taken out, the Rebels still have AT-APs and AT-XTs for long range shelling and T-4B tanks which have heavy armor + turbolasers and concussion missile launchers which are able to fight against AT-ATs too and by that time, even if one AT-AT survives it would be taking so much firepower from the remaining vehicles and hits from the Rebel specforce weapons.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

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Beniboybling
02.25.2013 , 04:43 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The back entrance to the Hangar leads to the Rebel shuttles outside of the base (I'm unsure about that part being actually canon being that I am drawing Echo Base's layout from BF2). So the rebels have a set-up outside of Echo Base, guarded by several turrets and whatever Rieekan sets up back there as last line of defense. He would be foolish to put all of his heavy equipment up front and not make a backup plan.
Ah, that part. I remember that part, that's the part I got stuck on with the Story missions, even with Darth Vader that turret circle decimated me.

I admit, that could certainly prove a study defense, and since they don't have aerial capabilities they'd have to charge them full on. However given the size of that area it will be difficult to mount a full offensive/garrison all his forces their. By the time the Empire have pushed them back to that point, they'll be on their last legs. Given the relatively small space, grenades will be effective here, as well as other munitions.

And Wolf you make a good point, one I shall have to address when I have the time. Until then.

P.S. And yes Aurbere, they don't call me the K-God for nothing.