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Accuracy for PvP


Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.20.2013 , 03:50 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBloodloss View Post
No, I'm sorry but you're the one who's wrong.
No, you and everyone else who gets their information from crappy sources like noxxic are wrong.


Quote:
Melee = non-special attack. uses white color flytext
Wrong, and we can easily prove you wrong.

First of all press C to open your character sheet and move your mouse over your melee accuracy and read the tooltip that appears when you hover mouse over. There you will see that it lists special attacks as a separate category under your melee accuracy and not under your force accuracy.

From this we learn 2 things: 1. Some melee attacks are special attacks 2. Melee special attacks have 100% base accuracy.

Next turn on your combat logging and go to the operations test dummy and start hitting it with nothing but Saber Strike for 5 minutes and then do the same with Trash and other attacks. Then send that combat log to a parser that displays how many times you missed and view the results

From this we learn 2 things: 1. All other melee attacks except Saber Strike are special attacks and 2. they miss 10% less often than Saber Strike

Quote:
Force = special attack.
Wrong!
The fact that we have already proven that some melee attacks are special attacks shows that this is not so.

Furthermore the word special attack only ever appears on the tooltip of the melee accuracy, but not on the force accuracy, so it almost like indicates that force attacks are not special attacks at all.

Quote:
uses yellow color flytext
Which identifies them as force attacks, not as special attacks. These are completely different things.

Quote:
Just because your toon swings a saber at a melee opponent doesn't make that a melee attack. So when I say all "Melee" attacks have 90%, I am correct. If you use a "force" attack to swing a saber at a melee opponent, its a "force" attack and not a "melee" attack
And this point is irrelevant to the discussion. You can see which attacks are melee or force by opening your abilities window which lists them as such.

Quote:
I'm 100% sure Thrash is "melee" and can miss. I am not sure, but I'd be willing to guess that at least one of the others is also "melee" and can miss....maybe Maul as well.
Can you read?
I already said it in my previous post that it is a melee attack
What you fail to understand is that it is a melee special attack instead of melee normal attack and the difference between the two.
And yes it can miss, but only due to the defense chance of your opponent (which all of them have at least some)

Now instead of repeating lies that misinformation sites like Noxxic.com tells you, why don't you do what I suggest and look at the evidence?

I have proof and evidence to back up my claims. What do you have?

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
02.20.2013 , 05:32 PM | #12
Such a noob lol

I have no idea what you are even arguing about. If you haven't learned by now what the difference in white and yellow attacks are, don't even bother learning. If you PvP alot, you quickly learn the difference between white and yellow damage. Its main relevance is regarding Tanking Shields (yellow cannot be mitigated via shielding, it always hits the target. white damage can be shielded and can miss the target if accuracy is lowered).

Also its "Thrash", not "trash". You spelled it wrong like 6 times and I even corrected it and didn't say anything. Then you ask if I can read? ha... Responding to posts in a line-by-line fashion is unnecessary. Summarize your thoughts and reply like a normal person if you expect people to read it.

Edit: I just googled to see what noxic was. Makes sense that you use that site lol
(fyi try dulfy.net)
Bloodloss Mercenary
DESTROYER OF WORLDS || KEEPER OF SOULS

IronmanSS's Avatar


IronmanSS
02.20.2013 , 09:32 PM | #13
Eternal - thanks for being right. Darth - you are wrong.

Saber Strike is our only BASIC Attack - it is a free, melee, white dmg attack that has a base 90% hit rate.

The SPECIAL Attacks have a separate Accuracy % (+10%) which is also listed on your MELEE TAB. Thrash, VS, Low Slash, Assassinate, maul etc. - they are force consuming, melee, White Dmg attacks that have a base 100% hit rate.

The FORCE / "Yellow" attacks (shock, discharge, FL, etc) have their Accuracy represented on their very own FORCE TAB - but yes, do usually share the same +10% to hit as the melee Special attacks - a base of 100%.

(If you don't buy this, then as previously suggested go look at some of your parses and calculate your miss rate of saber strike vs Thrash, but all of this info was determined over a year ago and is basic knowledge for anyone who has done their homework on MMO mechanics.)

Now if almost all of your major attacks have 100% hit rate why would you need ANY Accuracy? Because of DEFENSE.

PVP opponents all have a minimum of 5% defense (inquisitors have 10%, and tanks even more) - so now your chance to hit is diminished to 95% on your Specials and 85% on Saber Strike. This is why most melee dps pick up at least 5% accuracy even in PVP, to negate the 5% default defense everyone has automatically. With the changes to tanks in 2.0 (shields will actually be useful soon) we will likely see a meta-game shift to more actual tank specs in PVP, so picking up more accuracy might be a good idea in PVP in the near future. in PVP 95% is good enough for now, though giving Sorcs/Sins a 1/20 chance to not eat a maul or assassinate is high for my tastes.

In PVE Ops bosses have a standing 8-10% defense depending on the OP and difficulty, so packing 8-10% more Accuracy to offset this is usually wise to maximize your DPS in PvE. A Sin, as a SIngle weapon user, can sneak a little accuracy off of 100% to bring up surge a tad more (compared to dual wielders who need every bit of accuracy for their OH dmg). It also helps that VS/Thrash hit twice and have 2 "rolls", making completely missing a VS proc very unlikely (1/2500 at 98%). Also, you keep the buff on missed mauls making it basically only cost you a global. Missed assassinate sucks, but that's only up for 30% of the fight. Either way, 98-99% accuracy is fine for PvE.

The more you know...
Sulvira - Sith Assassin <E>

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
02.21.2013 , 03:36 AM | #14
you must be that guys friend? im not really sure what you are arguing about either lol

you specifically point out how Im wrong and then you repeat my whole point as its own paragraph

some people just need conflict i guess
Bloodloss Mercenary
DESTROYER OF WORLDS || KEEPER OF SOULS

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
02.21.2013 , 03:49 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by IronmanSS View Post
Eternal - thanks for being right. Darth - you are wrong.

Saber Strike is our only BASIC Attack - it is a free, melee, white dmg attack that has a base 90% hit rate.
When did I say otherwise?

The SPECIAL Attacks have a separate Accuracy % (+10%) which is also listed on your MELEE TAB. Thrash, VS, Low Slash, Assassinate, maul etc. - they are force consuming, melee, White Dmg attacks that have a base 100% hit rate.
Since you like to be so technical....you are technically wrong. They dont have a base of 100% since they receive a +10% BONUS. They have a 90% BASE like I said, and a +10% bonus. You tried to be overly technical yourself but it actually backfired for you.

The FORCE / "Yellow" attacks (shock, discharge, FL, etc) have their Accuracy represented on their very own FORCE TAB - but yes, do usually share the same +10% to hit as the melee Special attacks - a base of 100%.
I dont see how this statement is even needed here. Did I say something to contradict this?

(If you don't buy this, then as previously suggested go look at some of your parses and calculate your miss rate of saber strike vs Thrash, but all of this info was determined over a year ago and is basic knowledge for anyone who has done their homework on MMO mechanics.)
It seems like the most important thing here is for me to be wrong. You are so worried about me being wrong that you aren't even sure what I'm specifically wrong about....? Pick something i said instead of rambling off some random info on stuff we arent even talking about. You must be arguing semantics because we are all repeating the same thing.
Bloodloss Mercenary
DESTROYER OF WORLDS || KEEPER OF SOULS

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.21.2013 , 04:59 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBloodloss View Post
You are so worried about me being wrong that you aren't even sure what I'm specifically wrong about....?
You are wrong and we are actually sure about what you are wrong. You just don't seem to have the reading comprehension to understand what we are saying.
Not that it matters in itself. You can continue being wrong for all I care. I'm mostly warning other people about that you are feeding them misinformation.

-You have claimed that all melee attacks are normal attacks and force attacks are special attacks. This is wrong.
-You have claimed that all melee attacks have same base accuracy. This is wrong.
-You seem to have not understood the difference between force attacks and melee special attacks and melee normal attacks. All 3 work differently in regards of accuracy.

Now
1.
Open your character page in the game (press C) and move your over the melee accuracy and read the tooltip that appears when you hover your mouse over the melee accuracy.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...120719511.jpg/

As we can see melee normal attacks have 90% base accuracy and melee special attacks have 100% base accuracy. And they are both under the category of melee and they both display damage in white numbers, and they both can miss, but the latter only due to defense chance of your opponent.

2. Do some testing and review your combat logs, and you can see the difference and which attacks fall into each category.

Anyone who is willing to look at the evidence and has the brains to understand it, will see what I'm talking about.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.21.2013 , 05:36 AM | #17
Now one more time to explain accuracy.

Before we start let's make few things clear:
1. Noxxic.com is completely wrong about absolutely everything it says about accuracy. (and almost everything else)
2. Special attacks and force attacks are two completely different things.

Now how does accuracy work then:

You have basically 3 kinds of attacks:

- Melee normal attacks. Each class has only 1 attack that falls into this category. For assassin it is the Saber Strike. This and only this attack has 90% base accuracy. These attacks can be avoided by the opponents defense chance. If you attack someone with 10% defense and you don't have any accuracy rating gear, you will miss 20% of the time.

-Melee special attacks. These are all melee attacks except the one normal attack. For assassin these are Trash, Maul, Assassinate, Lacerate, Low Slash, Voltaic Slash. These have 100% base accuracy. They do however still benefit from accuracy since they can also be avoided by defense. If you don't have any accuracy rating in gear, and attack someone with 10% defense, they miss 10% of the time.

-Force attacks. Basically everything else not listed above. These have also 100% base accuracy and can not be avoided by defense. So basically they don't benefit from accuracy rating at all. If you attack someone no matter how high their defense is, these will not miss at all even if you don't have any accuracy rating gear. (there are few rare exceptions found only in PvP where they do)

And melee normal attacks and special attacks are both white damage. Try to get over that already.

One more time to recap:

If you have no accuracy rating gear at all, and attack someone with 10% defense chance:
-Your 1 melee normal attack will miss 20% of the time
-Your melee special attacks will miss 10% of the time
-Your force attacks will not miss at all

If you add enough accuracy rating to your gear to increase the bonus accuracy of them all by 10% and again attack someone with 10% defense
-Your 1 melee normal attack will then still miss 10% of the time
-Your melee special attacks will not miss at all
-Your force attacks will not miss at all

When attacking something that has defense chance that is different than 10%, you will have to adjust the numbers accordingly, but in all cases, melee special attacks will miss 10% less often than normal attack and force attacks are not affected at all.

For other classes it is the same thing more or less. Just replace melee with ranged and force with tech.

That's all there is to it for PvE. In PvP it is mostly the same, but there are few more things you have to take into account, when trying to determine how much you benefit from accuracy rating, but not going into those right now.

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
02.21.2013 , 04:28 PM | #18
Some people are limited to PvE, and I understand that. Its very hard not knowing what the enemy is going to do next. However, when you compare numbers in PvE, you don't have access to the recipient's character sheet and thus your info can't be 100% correct since guesswork is involved.

-There is no relevance to use the term "special" when describing attacks
-Any attack is either Melee, Ranged, Tech, or Force
-There is no such thing as Melee-Special, Ranged-Special, Force-Special, Tech-Special....as you are implying
-The word "special" is just a description and not a category of attack.

The range at which you attack does not determine the type of attack. The color of the damage determines the type of attack. Any attack that does white damage is (by category) a "Ranged" or "Melee" attack. It doesn't matter if the description says "Special".....if it does white damage its Ranged or Melee. A Marauder's Obfuscate reduces the target's RANGED and MELEE accuracy by 90%. Are you trying to tell me that there are certain "special" Melee/Ranged WHITE attacks that are not lowered by 90%? Sounds like you are

Any attack that does yellow damage is a Force or Tech attack. If it does yellow damage, its not a Ranged-Special attack....its a Tech/Force attack. Sounds like you are trying to say not all White-Damage-Range attacks are not actually all Ranged attack? some are white Tech damage?

Like I said you are arguing semantics. Way to ruin this guy's honest question because you felt the need for conflict.
Bloodloss Mercenary
DESTROYER OF WORLDS || KEEPER OF SOULS

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
02.21.2013 , 04:38 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
-You have claimed that all melee attacks are normal attacks and force attacks are special attacks. This is wrong.
Someone asked the difference between melee/tech attacks etc. I replied that melee/ranged are normal (because they are...they are the less flashy attacks usually). For you to make 3 separate walls of text because you don't like me describing them as "normal" is a bit much.

I also said that force and tech attacks are special attacks. "Special" in the sense that they are flashy big-time attacks. The word "special" on the tooltip is not really relevant to anything. There is no attack category for special attacks, there is no defense that only works vs special attacks, etc
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
-You have claimed that all melee attacks have same base accuracy. This is wrong.
You obviously don't know the definition of "base"....lol......90 base, plus 10 bonus. Not hard
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
-You seem to have not understood the difference between force attacks and melee special attacks and melee normal attacks. All 3 work differently in regards of accuracy.
This is your grand finale? You are again hyping up the use of the term "special". What is the practical relevance of an attack being designated special? It has an accuracy bonus but does it change how much accuracy you build with? No. So again whats the relevance?
Bloodloss Mercenary
DESTROYER OF WORLDS || KEEPER OF SOULS

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.21.2013 , 06:57 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBloodloss View Post
Sounds like you are trying to say not all White-Damage-Range attacks are not actually all Ranged attack? some are white Tech damage?
No it does not sound like it. You were proven wrong and you can't take it and now you are desperately trying to pretend that what was said was something different than what was said.


You make claims like this:

Quote:
If you have melee accuracy at 95% and you attack someone with defense of 5% such as a bounty hunter, you'll be missing 10% of the time.
And then this
Quote:
So when I say all "Melee" attacks have 90%, I am correct.
So you basically claimed that the same applies to all melee attacks. Which is not correct.
We have explained that this is not true, but you just refuse to understand what is being said

It is only true for one melee attack, but assassins have 4 (or 6 if deception spec) other melee attacks that are melee and deal white damage and so on, to which the above statements are not true.

Now to repeat it again:

- Melee/Ranged normal attacks (each class has only one normal attack) have 90% base accuracy. Accuracy over 100% reduces target's defense. If you have no accuracy rating gear, their "miss" chance is target's defense chance + 10%.

-Melee/Ranged special attacks (= all melee/ranged attacks except one) have 100% base accuracy. Accuracy over 100% reduces the target's defense. If you have no accuracy rating gear, their "miss" chance is equal target's defense chance and nothing more.

-Force/Tech attacks have 100% base accuracy. Accuracy over 100% is mostly useless for them (reduces target's resist chance, which is 0% anyway for almost everyone with just a few exceptions). They generally do not miss at all.

Now apart from the accuracy there are no other differences between melee/ranged normal attacks and melee/ranged special attacks. They are both subcategories under the same category.

There are of course many other differences between melee/ranged and force/tech attacks, but those are not relevant to the discussion.


And again:
Quote:
The range at which you attack does not determine the type of attack.
Yes this is correct
Quote:
Just because your toon swings a saber at a melee opponent doesn't make that a melee attack.
The fact that you feel the need to make statements like those shows that you have not understood what was said, but yes it is correct too.

For example Spike is an attack that has a 4m range (can only be used at same distance as melee attacks) and the animation shows you swinging your lightsaber when you do it, but it is still not a melee attack, but a force attack.

Quote:
I'm 100% sure Thrash is "melee" and can miss.
Yes, correct. Nobody has said anything to the contrary.
Again the fact that you feel the need to say things like that shows that you have not understood what was said to you.

Let's compare Saber Strike, Thrash and Spike. All 3 have 4m range and all 3 have animations of you using your lightsaber yet only the first 2 are under the category of melee.

Now there is more:

Saber Strike is a melee normal attack that could miss even on a target with 0% defense chance, if there was any such.

Thrash is a special attack which can "miss", but only due to the target's defense. It would not miss on a target with 0% defense.

Spike is a force power which normally does not miss at all. Defenses that work against melee attacks, do not work against it.