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Expertise system

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Zakmonster's Avatar


Zakmonster
02.21.2013 , 12:41 AM | #111
Expertise (and all other stats of similar bent) was implemented to prevent people in high-end raiding gear to walk in and dominate a WZ. With Expertise there's a clear definition between PvE and PvP gear - your raiding gear isn't good enough to play with the big boys.

With that definition though, you now had to grind twice as much if you were into both aspects of the game. Fortunately, EWH gear can substitute for most tiers of raiding gear, so you can still use your PvP gear in raids and not feel gimped.

The reverse doesn't hold true. PvE gear has 0 Expertise, which is the most important stat in a WZ. The new bolster system means that all but the best PvE gear will gain some measure of Expertise, allowing them compete. They're not gonna be as good as a dedicated PvPer, but they won't get repeatedly rolled either.

Why keep Expertise then? Because it is currently the easiest way to make sure that PvP gear is better than PvE gear without making PvP gear totally overpowered in PvE.

Without Expertise, the only way to make EWH better than DG is to make EWH have more stats than DG, which will then make EWH way better for PvE as well. So they introduce Expertise, which allows them to make EWH gear competitive for raids (but not the best) and DG gear competitive for WZs (but not the best).

That's my theory anyway.

Jagangla's Avatar


Jagangla
02.21.2013 , 12:49 AM | #112
I understand that it takes time to do the things you love. So you want to Raid...awesome..really happy for you! Go raid and put in the time and get the gear. Oh now you wanna do some PvP too? Go out on the battlefield and earn your due. You'll get rolled at first. But you know what, maybe that separates the good from the bad. You put in the time and get the gear. People argue that "OMG im so bored I maxed out blah blah blah" Well then...stop asking for smaller gear differentials in PvP and work and put in TIME to get gear. You'll play the game longer and stop complaining about end game content. PLUS you'll become a master PvP'er and welcome death and destruction. I love death and destruction..Did I mention I love death and destruction...k just checking
Christyna lvl 50 Operative

ebado's Avatar


ebado
02.21.2013 , 12:51 AM | #113
For anybody playing on the PTS, there's a bug with the bolster system right now where you can boost your stats to insane levels. I've really enjoyed the 35k+ shocks I've taken. Screenshots from the PTS forum:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/24nmpsp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/54l2Kql.jpg
kolto and corrosives
window legacy - the bastion

Zakmonster's Avatar


Zakmonster
02.21.2013 , 01:05 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Jagangla View Post
I understand that it takes time to do the things you love. So you want to Raid...awesome..really happy for you! Go raid and put in the time and get the gear. Oh now you wanna do some PvP too? Go out on the battlefield and earn your due. You'll get rolled at first. But you know what, maybe that separates the good from the bad. You put in the time and get the gear. People argue that "OMG im so bored I maxed out blah blah blah" Well then...stop asking for smaller gear differentials in PvP and work and put in TIME to get gear. You'll play the game longer and stop complaining about end game content. PLUS you'll become a master PvP'er and welcome death and destruction. I love death and destruction..Did I mention I love death and destruction...k just checking
It's a game, it shouldn't be work.

Besides, what difference does it make if some raider gets a bit of a boost in a WZ? You're in full PvP gear, you're twinked and min-maxed and optimized, you'll still roll all over his face. The bolster system in no way devalues what you've achieved - you're still in top-end PvP gear.

And think about the other scenario. When you've just hit 55 and are still walking around in Recruit, the bolster system means you won't get instantly wrecked by the EWHs. You'll also be benefiting from this new system, let's not forget about that.
The Harbinger Server: Caezia - Level 55 Vanguard / Cezia - Level 55 Powertech / Zaethia - Level 55 Guardian / Xaethia - Level 33 Scoundrel / Caedia - Level 50 Vanguard / Vaknia - Level 27 Mercenary / Xethia - Level 28 Marauder / Zefia - Level 33 Sorcerer / Zethia- Level 38 Commando

Polebreaker's Avatar


Polebreaker
02.21.2013 , 01:27 AM | #115
And I still maintain that the "gear gap" is nearly meaningless as it is *now*. If you are a skilled player, it rarely matters if you are wearing recruit mk2 or war hero. If you're in a situation where you are getting smashed in 5 seconds, no set of gear in this game is gonna save you. Sadly, that situation happens a *lot* because of the OTHER more important imbalances in the game. If you are somehow in a 1v1 deathmatch in huttball against someone with an identical build and identical class... then you may have a point (and also please get out of my wz.) But otherwise, the 'gear gap' has become a straw man.

So go all the way... make everyone a cookie cutter. Scrap bolster completely, just put everyone in a template. Then all you people who are so worried about gear gaps will have nothing to worry about.

Zakmonster's Avatar


Zakmonster
02.21.2013 , 01:51 AM | #116
Assuming we remove gear from the equation and everyone has a template, how will you allow for optimization of stats? Let's say a Commando wants less Accuracy and more Alacrity, how will that work?

And sure, let's make the reward for PvP to be purely cosmetic gear, or some PvE gear to make your dailies and stuff go a lot smoother.

The problem is that aesthetics is subjective. I still prefer the look of the Guardian legacy armor over anything else she gets at endgame (it all looks horrible). I have no faith in BW to make a set of armor that looks really nice and exclusive. Therefore, the desire to achieve these rewards might vary based on whether you personally think the gear looks nice.

Stats, on the other hand, is not. More stats is good, less stats is bad - everyone can agree on this.

Yes, the gear gap now is quite meaningless. The gear gap in 2.0 will become even more meaningless. It's not ideal, but it's a pretty good facsimile of.

In short, I don't really a see a problem.
The Harbinger Server: Caezia - Level 55 Vanguard / Cezia - Level 55 Powertech / Zaethia - Level 55 Guardian / Xaethia - Level 33 Scoundrel / Caedia - Level 50 Vanguard / Vaknia - Level 27 Mercenary / Xethia - Level 28 Marauder / Zefia - Level 33 Sorcerer / Zethia- Level 38 Commando

MotorCityMan's Avatar


MotorCityMan
02.21.2013 , 01:57 AM | #117
I applaud these changes. They sound very fair and inclusive.

Drudenfusz's Avatar


Drudenfusz
02.21.2013 , 02:47 AM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by ebado View Post
For anybody playing on the PTS, there's a bug with the bolster system right now where you can boost your stats to insane levels. I've really enjoyed the 35k+ shocks I've taken. Screenshots from the PTS forum:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/24nmpsp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/54l2Kql.jpg
It is obviosly still in testing... but still that is huge, how could that happen? Makes me worry what will be missed durring testing and lead to exploits.
My Old Republic Warring is Magic
Gwenya - The Drudenfusz Legacy, Jedi Shadow on Jar'Kai Sword
When you play the game of PvP, you win or you die.
English version <- SWTOR Wiki -> German version

Tarn_Sirun's Avatar


Tarn_Sirun
02.21.2013 , 03:29 AM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by RobHinkle View Post
Thanks for the ideas! We are actually making some changes to the expertise system and how bolster interacts with the players in an upcoming Game Update (more info on this Update coming VERY soon), and this seems like a reasonable place to reveal some details about it, so buckle up and hold on!

To give everyone a common base of knowledge, let me briefly discuss how bolster and expertise work on the live servers as of right now (Game Update 1.7). Expertise is pretty easy, it is a diminishing returns rating that increases the damage output against other players, gives damage reduction against other players, and increases healing on targets who are in PvP. As you get higher in value of expertise, you need more and more rating to achieve the same increase (hence, the diminishing returns). Expertise only comes on PvP items, but inside PvP expertise is designed to be better bang for your buck than normal "PvE" stats.

The bolster system looks at a player's level and makes an assumption of the stats a player at that level would have and increases them to a target level defined by the designers. Bolster totally ignores what the player ACTUALLY has for stats, it doesn't matter if you are naked or fully geared out, it will give you the same bonuses either way. Notably, bolster will *not* give any expertise stat in Game Update 1.7.

In a major upcoming Game Update, everything changes, woo! Expertise still touches the same 3 functions (damage out, damage in, and healing out), but is no longer is a diminished return value, you get the same increase in power for the same increase in expertise, regardless of going from 0 to 20 or 2000 to 2020. We've also cranked up just how much expertise enhances each of these functions, so having good expertise is more important than ever. Additionally, expertise is no longer a stat that will grow throughout a tier of items, all PvP gear will generate the same total of expertise (caveat: This statement only applies starting with the new gear in the new update. Previous PvP gear will not quite have the fully intended expertise totals).

The bigger change is in how we bolster and add stats to players to even out the playing field. Instead of focusing on player level, now the bolster system will take a look at each individual item on your character and use that as the baseline assumption of power for that item slot. We then bolster each slot up to what we feel is the "entry level" of PvP power, at which we think everyone can be happy playing without getting simply out geared to death. Effectively, we bolster players to something like what our recruit gear set tries to do now in 1.7, but with much better accuracy and effect. Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power.


All of this put together should make our Warzone matches much more about skill in this future game update, and less about people who simply aren't in the correct gear, while still giving our PvPers some better gear out there to strive for.

Thanks for listening!
and yet expertise still doesnt work outside of warzones

Polebreaker's Avatar


Polebreaker
02.21.2013 , 03:31 AM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Zakmonster View Post
Assuming we remove gear from the equation and everyone has a template, how will you allow for optimization of stats? Let's say a Commando wants less Accuracy and more Alacrity, how will that work?
He's sol. That way it's all fair and everyone's equal. Isnt that what everyone wants?

i suppose you could have a couple templates for each class, you can choose, like healer or dps template for your sorc, or whatever. But the whole point is that there is no customization of stats at all. Even out that playing field... those who want to take the time to learn the system and grind out a better set up need not apply.

Which is where this road leads. If you dont have a problem with it, cool. i dont *really*, except that's not what I started playing swtor pvp for. I signed up expecting there to be differences in gear, along with all the other differences in a warzone. There's other games that go the template route, including your basic console fps shooters, and i dont particularly care for them. This homogenization of players makes for a boring game, imho. But if that's what will stop the hue and cry about a gear gap, then, so be it....

Get it out of the way, then maybe they can address some of the *actual* issues.