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Discussion concerning awareness/strategy.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Discussion concerning awareness/strategy.

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.16.2013 , 10:17 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
I'm not sure I buy into your "whittle them all down to low, then finish them all off at once" strategy. I'm of the opinion (remember, opinions can be changed easier than beliefs) that while you are getting them all low, they will be busy focus firing and killing you off. Someone with 1/10th their health is hitting you just as hard as someone with 10/10s their health. Then, about the time you get all the defenders to "low" (whatever you decide that is) you will find that you are now outnumbered 2 to 1, and, because they are just as good as you, they end up taking you out instead.

Of course, that's all just made up numbers, but that's the way the games "feel" to me. I've been in plenty of matches where our PUG group is working on getting them all low coincidentally - because we don't focus fire at all, and each of the enemy toons is running around with 1/2 or 1/3 health. Instead of us somehow wiping them all out at the same time, and going on to cap, what usually happens is that we find that our 5 attackers has become 3... I mean 2... I mean 1... oh crap.

So, similar to your strat for voidstar, and timing deaths to the ticks on the door, I think I'm kinda leaning towards the idea that if you have a team that is pulling off these strategies against the other side, then you don't need to be pulling off these strategies. You'd be killing them just using brute-force (as you called it).

But I'm waiting to be convince otherwise.
I understand exactly what you are saying. Let me be clear.

Nothing I have mentioned in this thread, or my Voidstar thread, are ABSOLUTE answers to all situations. They do not apply at all times. If you understand the logic behind what I state, you can individually come up with your own situations in which these rules/strategies do apply.

Try to focus less on what the exact situation is and more on what the logic is, and why it makes sense.

Situation X - Your team is attacking Grass Node because the other team is defending it.

It is a 5v3 in your team's favor. You show up in the mix and it is now a 6v3. It is APPARENT that your team will be able to wipe all of the defenders out. You do not attack the lowest defender, you attack a defender with more health in the attempt to wipe all of the defenders out at once. Your team wipes them all at once. Your team caps the node.

Summarize: When it is OBVIOUS/APPARENT that your team will be able to kill everyone, you should apply this logic.

Situation Y - It is a 6v6 at the Grass Node. YOU LEAVE. Because your team will never cap the node against a good team when it is anything bigger than a 4v4, I'd say. If you leave (or you die) and some of your remaining teammates focus on stalling/CC'ing the Defenders and keeping them at that node then they are doing the right thing. You now have the opportunity to go to the other node since they Defenders are overloaded at Grass Node. So in this case you do not focus on killing people at the same time or w/e, you drop that logic and you apply another logic due to the reasons I mentioned in this paragraph.

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.16.2013 , 10:24 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
So, similar to your strat for voidstar, and timing deaths to the ticks on the door, I think I'm kinda leaning towards the idea that if you have a team that is pulling off these strategies against the other side, then you don't need to be pulling off these strategies. You'd be killing them just using brute-force (as you called it).

But I'm waiting to be convince otherwise.
You don't see these strategies in RATEDS because the skill/quailty of the top RATED teams have not reached this point. They are hanging on to Brute Force only to do their job.

Do me a favor. Next time you play a game on Voidstar. When you hit the Attacker's round.

Do this:

LOOK AT THE TICKS ON THE DOOR. Tell yourself, ok, I see someone that is low on health, I know that their door is resetting in 5~7 seconds. I'm going to kill that mother ****er in about ~8 seconds. Kill that mother ****er. Go back and look at the door. Look at that guy you put behind the door for the entire ~30 seconds he is behind it.

Then tell me if you feel more vindicated and useful to your team than just running around blindly DPS'ing/Killing Defenders like everyone else in this game.

AngelofCain's Avatar


AngelofCain
02.16.2013 , 10:25 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Polymerize View Post
You don't see these strategies in RATEDS because the skill/quailty of the top RATED teams have not reached this point. They are hanging on to Brute Force only to do their job.

Do me a favor. Next time you play a game on Voidstar. When you hit the Attacker's round.

Do this:

LOOK AT THE TICKS ON THE DOOR. Tell yourself, ok, I see someone that is low on health, I know that their door is resetting in 5~7 seconds. I'm going to kill that mother ****er in about ~8 seconds. Kill that mother ****er. Go back and look at the door. Look at that guy you put behind the door for the entire ~30 seconds he is behind it.

Then tell me if you feel more vindicated and useful to your team than just running around blindly DPS'ing/Killing Defenders like everyone else in this game.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... it's totally worth doing it too. then wait and cc him when it comes out just to rub salt in the wounds
Hallow, ägronä, <Status unknown> -(Concealment Operative)
Elite Warlord (since1.2) // Warzone Annihilator

Edonidd's Avatar


Edonidd
02.16.2013 , 10:26 PM | #24
Dude, I am happy if I can just get people on my team to realize that Mid isn't worth any more points than the side nodes. I honest to god was on a team in 50 PvP and we took both sides with 4 people total, and those other 4 people stopped the cap at mid for a while. We were calling inc to a side node and those 4 people just stayed at mid. They lost mid and then we lost the side node because nobody would come defend. One of the idiots at mid pulled one of those epic rage quits where he cursed out every single player on the team before he left. One of the things he told us was that we lost the WZ as soon as we only sent 4 people to mid. That you can't win without mid. That it was the hardest to take and easiest to defend since it was so close to the speeders.


I had to track the guy down afterwards, and he was wearing full min maxed EWH gear. Which is a considerable grind. Ali don't even want to think about hoe many ACW's that guy has been in, but he was convinced that mid was the easiest to defend, and apparently hadn't figured out yet that you can ride speeders to side nodes. Those are the people I get grouped with regularly in PuG WZ's

AngelofCain's Avatar


AngelofCain
02.16.2013 , 10:29 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post
Dude, I am happy if I can just get people on my team to realize that Mid isn't worth any more points than the side nodes. I honest to god was on a team in 50 PvP and we took both sides with 4 people total, and those other 4 people stopped the cap at mid for a while. We were calling inc to a side node and those 4 people just stayed at mid. They lost mid and then we lost the side node because nobody would come defend. One of the idiots at mid pulled one of those epic rage quits where he cursed out every single player on the team before he left. One of the things he told us was that we lost the WZ as soon as we only sent 4 people to mid. That you can't win without mid. That it was the hardest to take and easiest to defend since it was so close to the speeders.


I had to track the guy down afterwards, and he was wearing full min maxed EWH gear. Which is a considerable grind. Ali don't even want to think about hoe many ACW's that guy has been in, but he was convinced that mid was the easiest to defend, and apparently hadn't figured out yet that you can ride speeders to side nodes. Those are the people I get grouped with regularly in PuG WZ's
that's because you neglected the Single Golden Rule for all pvp.

Never PVP sober, ever.
Hallow, ägronä, <Status unknown> -(Concealment Operative)
Elite Warlord (since1.2) // Warzone Annihilator

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.16.2013 , 10:30 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post
Dude, I am happy if I can just get people on my team to realize that Mid isn't worth any more points than the side nodes. I honest to god was on a team in 50 PvP and we took both sides with 4 people total, and those other 4 people stopped the cap at mid for a while. We were calling inc to a side node and those 4 people just stayed at mid. They lost mid and then we lost the side node because nobody would come defend. One of the idiots at mid pulled one of those epic rage quits where he cursed out every single player on the team before he left. One of the things he told us was that we lost the WZ as soon as we only sent 4 people to mid. That you can't win without mid. That it was the hardest to take and easiest to defend since it was so close to the speeders.


I had to track the guy down afterwards, and he was wearing full min maxed EWH gear. Which is a considerable grind. Ali don't even want to think about hoe many ACW's that guy has been in, but he was convinced that mid was the easiest to defend, and apparently hadn't figured out yet that you can ride speeders to side nodes. Those are the people I get grouped with regularly in PuG WZ's


That is why you have to improve your awareness/strategies in order to carry the weak players. I'm trying to vitalize this PVP Forum in order to improve the overall quality of all PVP players because I like to play at a high level, whether that may be in PUGS or RATEDS. Playing with and against unskilled players is boring and has no value for me.

Kurvv's Avatar


Kurvv
02.16.2013 , 10:46 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelofCain View Post
I feel your pain. I was lucky though when I got picked to be on Meow Mix. I started with them on the same server, and we pvped so much that we just grooved together so well. My partner in all the matches was a sniper (unless there was a stealth job). The way we had things set up was like a buddy system. Healers and tanks went together and we split our remaining 4 dps into 2 kill squads. Usually mara and pt, and stabby op and sniper. But sometimes we just all worked together. P/ts with grapple and sins with pull were my second favorite people to team up with. they pull and I'd open just as they got there and it was just mass murder.

then the P/t crazy hit and slowly I got edged out in favor of FOTM.

Ah well 2147 rating is as good as I care to get til things get more stabby friendly.

As for the only people responding, it's probably cause shiny batstick wielders just jump in and hope for the best. Very few mara's I know actually understand strats, versus just smashing things. or how best to use abilities. I prefer predation over blood thirst only in the fact that it makes me harder to catch even in open combat, (especially in open combat) and it makes healers harder to catch if they are moving faster than the other team.

watching two teams when both pop predation is like (probably) being on the white pony.

and I realized that I derailed and lost the thought of the thread.
Yeah, the guild I was in on my original server was similar in that we played together a lot and had really good chemistry when it came to pvp. We had a lot of shadows and scoundrels and almost everyone could switch between tank/dps or heals/dps and be just as effective (this was before shadow hybrid builds or even the scoundrel healing buff). We talked strat a lot, but unfortunately 90% of the guild left for Tera or other games when 1.2 hit and bioware dumbed down pvp (on-use relic/stim removal).
It's a shame because I really would've liked to see how we would have done in rateds. We realized early we didn't have the plethora of sents/vgs to overcome everything with dps, so we focused on strats and beating people with intelligence rather than force.

To the op, you presented a scenario, I told you how I'd respond to it. Obviously making variations to it might change my response.
My preferred method of cc is death

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.17.2013 , 02:50 AM | #28
Bump.

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
02.17.2013 , 12:01 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Polymerize View Post
You don't see these strategies in RATEDS because the skill/quailty of the top RATED teams have not reached this point. They are hanging on to Brute Force only to do their job.
I think you quoted the wrong person when you put in the above reply, both because I didn't say anything about rateds, and because you had already replied to me right above this one. Just FYI.

But to your reply to me... In theory I totally agree with you. It would be by far better to kill off the entire team of defenders within about 5 seconds, and give your team all that free time to cap; better to kill in VS when they have a full door; etc. But my point is that much of your argument seems based on the idea that *you* can choose when to kill off that other guy. I don't think there is *any* situation when you can do that with much certainty (again, unless you are so overpowering the other side that it just doesn't matter).

With the nature of abilities in this game, where having one thing off cooldown can literally be a life saver, there are just too many things that can thwart your intentions. I play my shadow mostly - so if you are trying to kill me and you realize (by way of example) - "oh wait, I need to wait 5 more seconds for the VS door to close" - wow, I have SO many things just myself that might come off cooldown to save my butt - Cc, force sprint, combat stealth, that tech/force immunity, medpak - plus I'm continuing to attack you, someone else might attack you, a healer might notice me and throw a heal.

Granted, as a shadow I have a ton of stuff, but even other classes have Cc, they have various defensive cooldowns, they are continuing to attack you (some a lot more effectively than I can), they have medpaks, they have friendly healers. I'm remembering plenty of times when that other guy had just a *sliver* of health left, and all I needed was one good smack to finish him off and somehow he just kept living and living and living. On the flip side, I've also experience the "oh crap how did I die, I just had 1/3 of my health a second ago!?" after someone setup and executed their big-auto-crit attack on me (I guess), so who says you will stay alive another 5 seconds to perform that optimal kill?

Maybe I just need a "if you have the luxury of waiting, then it's better to..." thrown in front of all your statements?

Quote: Originally Posted by Polymerize View Post
Do me a favor. Next time you play a game on Voidstar. When you hit the Attacker's round.
I got a voidstar yesterday finally. My current "awareness level" in this game, with respect to your ideas, is that I now recognize the door is showing me ticks, and I remember to glance at it once in a while. Then I see that 3 are attacking the one we have guarding east and no inc call, someone is capping west because no one there is actually watching the door, my healer is dying, and the beeper on my stove is going off telling me to get the pot off the burner - and then I forget about the door ticks. But at least now I know there are door ticks.

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.17.2013 , 12:20 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
I think you quoted the wrong person when you put in the above reply, both because I didn't say anything about rateds, and because you had already replied to me right above this one. Just FYI.

But to your reply to me... In theory I totally agree with you. It would be by far better to kill off the entire team of defenders within about 5 seconds, and give your team all that free time to cap; better to kill in VS when they have a full door; etc. But my point is that much of your argument seems based on the idea that *you* can choose when to kill off that other guy. I don't think there is *any* situation when you can do that with much certainty (again, unless you are so overpowering the other side that it just doesn't matter).

With the nature of abilities in this game, where having one thing off cooldown can literally be a life saver, there are just too many things that can thwart your intentions. I play my shadow mostly - so if you are trying to kill me and you realize (by way of example) - "oh wait, I need to wait 5 more seconds for the VS door to close" - wow, I have SO many things just myself that might come off cooldown to save my butt - Cc, force sprint, combat stealth, that tech/force immunity, medpak - plus I'm continuing to attack you, someone else might attack you, a healer might notice me and throw a heal.

Granted, as a shadow I have a ton of stuff, but even other classes have Cc, they have various defensive cooldowns, they are continuing to attack you (some a lot more effectively than I can), they have medpaks, they have friendly healers. I'm remembering plenty of times when that other guy had just a *sliver* of health left, and all I needed was one good smack to finish him off and somehow he just kept living and living and living. On the flip side, I've also experience the "oh crap how did I die, I just had 1/3 of my health a second ago!?" after someone setup and executed their big-auto-crit attack on me (I guess), so who says you will stay alive another 5 seconds to perform that optimal kill?

Maybe I just need a "if you have the luxury of waiting, then it's better to..." thrown in front of all your statements?



I got a voidstar yesterday finally. My current "awareness level" in this game, with respect to your ideas, is that I now recognize the door is showing me ticks, and I remember to glance at it once in a while. Then I see that 3 are attacking the one we have guarding east and no inc call, someone is capping west because no one there is actually watching the door, my healer is dying, and the beeper on my stove is going off telling me to get the pot off the burner - and then I forget about the door ticks. But at least now I know there are door ticks.


I don't know how many different ways I can say that the strategies I've mentioned are by no means ABSOLUTE rules that apply to each and every situation. You have to understand the logic and apply it where it is applicable. I wish I had video taping abilities so I could disprove the naysayers. Suppose I should do some research and find out how to record some matches and do some commentary. I apply the Golden Rules in Voidstar with ease. I suppose I should throw in a disclaimer to all my threads that states that you can't just join into a game and expect to deploy my strategies without putting any mental effort forth. I never said any of what I'm talking about is easy to, by any means whatsoever.