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I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

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I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

Asavrede's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 03:10 AM | #151
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBBP View Post
This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?
Open world exploration. Simple as that.

SWTOR's world is not open, and it's not worth exploring. You have map indicators everywhere you need to go, and there is no hidden gems lurking anywhere to make you want to try and do anything else. Lots of dead ends, though. (obviously not counting datacrons, which are so well documented they dont count as exploring anymore either).

Apeth's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 03:18 AM | #152
We didn't know how to do anything. It was all new. These days we kinda know how it all works before we even play the game. Fan websites show quest guides before they are even patched in. And I think its all been simplified skills used to be far more complex. You could also be unique. I played ultima online first and it blew me away. Just traveling to another city for the first time was an adventure that took planning and time. Not these days its to fast, to easy. I still love this game though I wish for bigger and slower from it.
Jeracho/Jera-cho/Ezekeol ' Triumvirate of the Grey'- Masters of Light and Dark, Darths of the Sith Empire. Memeber of the Apostles of the Force - Red Eclipse.

Kaedusz's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 03:22 AM | #153
I think it was ''wonderous'' because back then(first mmo experience) it felt like a Matrix(the movie).
It was a virtual world you could explore and learn about with your virtual self(player character) that you create and develop yourself.

.Also being teenager or a kid basically ,people had tons of free time and no worries or responsibilities adults have,so they can immerse in the game more fully.

Applicator's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 03:55 AM | #154
Quote: Originally Posted by Asavrede View Post
Open world exploration. Simple as that.

SWTOR's world is not open, and it's not worth exploring. You have map indicators everywhere you need to go, and there is no hidden gems lurking anywhere to make you want to try and do anything else. Lots of dead ends, though. (obviously not counting datacrons, which are so well documented they dont count as exploring anymore either).
Don't look up where datacrons and special things are and it's still wondrous. People just read too much on forums/guides nowdays

AsheraII's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 04:43 AM | #155
The developers of the earlier MMO's used to throw in a lot of "fluff" to bring the world to life. Places to explore, little details and easter eggs, unique monsters and vendors located off the beaten path from which you could get something special, like an armor that looked a bit different or a schematic for some potion that was identical to some other potion, but used frogliver instead of chickenliver, suddenly making those useless froglivers useful to you and giving you an alternative from the overpriced chickenlivers on the market.

All that has been streamlined into a single path of progress now. Developers don't spend time anymore designing that special looking armor that may drop from one off-the-beaten-path pack of monsters, your only option is the one that drops from some generic monster located on the standard path of progress. Or just give you an even better armor as a questreward, so there isn't any point to use any dropped item. Which also means there's no point for the developers to include them, since noone will appreciate them anyway. They're downgrades! Nobody is going to appreciate a downgrade!

On top of that, YouTube and database/datamining sites happened. Anything left to explore is widely known thanks to all the guides and databases.
Developers sometimes still try to include a "secret" or two, but just look at what happened with the datacrons. Within 2 weeks, there were guides to all the datacrons all over the internet, the non-explorers feel it's mandatory to obtain them, and are now whining how it takes so much "effort" to obtain them. And it gets even sadder.. Some idiots at Bioware are now considering the idea to make them a legacy unlock.. The game world just died a bit more.
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Paokzu's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 04:51 AM | #156
OP, I love that you said this. I started eq in '01 and still play. MMOs today should have taken a few ideas from EQ, seriously. Even if it were just one thing, for example: What would Swtor be like if it used the Alternate Achievement system instead of Talent Trees? The time spent online by everyone wanting to become something better and unique would surge. The AAs really stand out to me as the biggest difference and greatest possible improvement. I'd also have to cite massive exploration and crafting as HUGE differences.
"You should never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die."

Paokzu's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 05:05 AM | #157
Quote: Originally Posted by Trushott View Post
It's older gamers at the time didn't mind the grind and accepted it as fun

Over time each expansion in Everquest took away grind once Luclin came out and u could go anywhere in EQ so fast the world got incredibly small

New gamers for most part come rom a have to have now cannot wait instant gratification generation and simply wouldn't like it very much sadly

But the reason the game world seemed so large were travel times were absolute huge and vast which gives a sense of wow this is an entire world ... Which is good sometimes

Sadly I do not think there are fine wine drinkers that want to savor each sip left in gaming for most part gamers of today would rather shotgun the beer and be done with it

With all that said ... Even though huge travel times through many zones may seem like an ordeal it presents adventure on the way ... And even though most think they do not like it I think deep down they do and do not realize its what's makes a digitized world seem to come alive... But no developers have the wherewithal to sustain the barrage of whiners if they did ...

Just my two cents
/applause Agree 100%
"You should never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die."

gabarooni's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 06:53 AM | #158
Imo class balance and pvp are what ruined MMO's. Everyone has a set path set for them and they cant diverge from it. Plus your toon caps at max lvl and there are no ways to advance them outside of raids. You used to have tons of things you could do and tons of chooices for your toon. But now a days its all "Balanced" to make it "Fair"
New Gear is the ONLY type of character progression at endgame. Raiders are not the only ones who want to continue to progress their toons throughout an expansion. Im a bad bad speller.

drug_cartel's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 06:58 AM | #159
It was Everquest for me as well, and I am not entirely convinced that it is impossible to recapture.

When I look back on EQ and I compare it to other MMOs, Everquest had more content in it's original release pre-Kunark than what most MMOs now have after 4 years. When they said Massive Multiplayer Online RPG, they meant that the actual game was Massive, not simply that they expected a large number of people. I played Everquest for five straight years and I did not come anywhere near exploring everything, probably not even half the content in the game.

Taking a random slice out of the game, if you were playing at level 30 in EQ at launch, you might be in Sol A, Unrest, Highpass Hold, Upper Guk, South Karana, Lake Rathe, Castle Mistmoor, Cazic Thule, or North Karana, with fully viable options for grouping and soloing. And that wasn't the endgame; EQ launched as a 50 level game just like Star Wars. Compare that to SWTOR at level 30. It's pretty much set in stone. Everyone has a linear story with only one real option of place-to-go. In Everquest, we could level from 1-50 five times over and never send a character to the same place. In SWTOR, the planetary missions go from being exciting to rapidly becoming boring and overplayed, because we are going to follow the exact same pre-ordained path every single time. And that's not just SWTOR, but essentially every MMO that launches these days does so without even a quarter of the total amount of content that Everquest had.

The second thing that I feel Everquest had that every other MMO seems to fail at is factions. Even later in Everquest, they took on the lazy standards that MMOs use today of running with either the Sesame Street ideals of every single race/class gets along, or the rigid two-faction system of Good Guys vs Bad Guys. Horde vs Alliance, Republic vs Empire, Heroes vs Villains, whatever the MMOs of today call the factions, it doesn't matter. It's terrible when compared to the brilliant system EQ launched with.

In Everquest, "faction" literally meant a group of people which had their own reputation. Almost everything you killed had a faction. Murder that Human Guard, you just took a negative hit to your Human Faction, your Freeport Guard faction, and your Merchants Alliance faction, but you get a positive boost with the Crushbone Orcs. What cities you were welcome in, what vendors would sell to you (and even what kind of deals they would cut you), what quests you qualified for, all of that was as a result of the actions you had committed as your character, not just a single two-option selection made at character creation. We were given a feel of a real world because our decisions had consequences. I remember Paladins saying that they refused to kill the Froglok King because he carried Paladin Faction and if they killed him for his great loot, their local trainer would no longer allow them to train in Freeport and they would have to sail across the world to Elf town when they leveled. Decisions had consequences, and that was something that pretty much every other MMO fails to capture.

And lastly, in EQ, you could kill literally ANYTHING. "Hello, Mr Backpack Vendor. *Stab!*" You had absolute freedom of choice, understanding that there were consequences in place. A dwarf warrior could walk into the Dwarf King's throneroom and attack him. Immediately dozens of high level dwarf guards would pounce on him and kill him for such an affront, but the player could still attempt the attack if they chose. And if they were powerful enough to be successful, they could kill that King and have their Dwarf faction so utterly destroyed that any Dwarf NPC in the world attacks them on sight. The innkeeper who is helping that player beside you, he'll attack you if you step into his inn because he hates you for being that renown murderer of Elves or whatever.

How many of us have been annoyed that we couldn't murder the companion that we hate, or that some obnoxious NPC never gives us the option to stab them. How many of us have some mouthy character insult us when we are five levels higher than them and decked out in raid level gear. I hate the magical energy that makes their name appear in green and prevents me from being physically capable of attacking them. Even if I'm going to lose, having the freedom to make those decisions on our own was part of what made those old games so emersive.

Everquest was a real world where you could do literally anything. Everything else since then has been policed by too many invisible rules.

ZoeTuah's Avatar

05.23.2013 , 07:13 AM | #160
I think a lot of it is how formulaic MMOs have become. Where before MMOs were all about a grand alternate world to explore, the focus has shifted to the mechanical side of the game. How many areas outside of SWTOR's business centers and cantinas are you likely to go to just because it's an interesting place? How many times have you gotten lost and found an incredible adventure that was never just shown to you? How many times have you genuinely felt like you were in another world?

I still get this feeling from Maplestory, of all games. It may have turned to crap in a lot of ways, but wonderment still exists.