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Does anyone else thing the Rule of Two is kind of stupid? (spoilers)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Does anyone else thing the Rule of Two is kind of stupid? (spoilers)

dark_wolf's Avatar


dark_wolf
02.16.2013 , 12:18 AM | #1
WARNING: SPOILERS FOR THE DARTH BANE TRILOGY.





I mean don't get me wrong, Darth Bane fracking awesome and his plan did work, but it just seems so risky. There's only two sith at a time. I can think of a couple instances where Bane and Zannah both almost got themselves killed and thus ended the Sith Order. The trip to Tython, what if the hyperspace lanes had collapsed on them or the Jedi did succeed in killing them there? They could have both died in the Stone Prison as well. Or what if somewhere along the line the Master and Apprentice kill each other during their battle for succession? What if there is just some random accident that kills them both. Two people doesn't leave a lot room for error or bad luck. Anyone else agree?

BradTheImpaler's Avatar


BradTheImpaler
02.16.2013 , 01:32 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by dark_wolf View Post
WARNING: SPOILERS FOR THE DARTH BANE TRILOGY.

I mean don't get me wrong, Darth Bane fracking awesome and his plan did work, but it just seems so risky. There's only two sith at a time. I can think of a couple instances where Bane and Zannah both almost got themselves killed and thus ended the Sith Order. The trip to Tython, what if the hyperspace lanes had collapsed on them or the Jedi did succeed in killing them there? They could have both died in the Stone Prison as well. Or what if somewhere along the line the Master and Apprentice kill each other during their battle for succession? What if there is just some random accident that kills them both. Two people doesn't leave a lot room for error or bad luck. Anyone else agree?
It's less risky, or at least no more risky than having an army of followers which could potentially turn on you at any moment. Maybe it wouldn't work as a universal rule and I doubt Bane meant it to be, but sometimes circumstances call for a more subtle approach than just trying to overpower the Republic.

Besides, the Sith are pretty darn exclusive. Ideally the point is that a handpicked apprentice to the Dark Lord of the Sith will have shown himself capable of handling unforeseen "accidents".
In the Imperial Army, it takes more courage to retreat than to advance.

Nagisawa's Avatar


Nagisawa
02.16.2013 , 03:42 AM | #3
Of course it's stupid, it's both idiotically Darwinian and Saturday Morning Cartoon Evil stupid, at the same time! It simply sets themselves up for failure, constantly. There's no way that the Sith are actually a threat the moment Bane enacts this idiocy.

It's why I can't play Darkside, it's too silly and dumb to be allowed to propagate.

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
02.16.2013 , 04:46 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by dark_wolf View Post
WARNING: SPOILERS FOR THE DARTH BANE TRILOGY.
There's only two sith at a time. I can think of a couple instances where Bane and Zannah both almost got themselves killed and thus ended the Sith Order. The trip to Tython, what if the hyperspace lanes had collapsed on them or the Jedi did succeed in killing them there? They could have both died in the Stone Prison as well. Or what if somewhere along the line the Master and Apprentice kill each other during their battle for succession? What if there is just some random accident that kills them both. Two people doesn't leave a lot room for error or bad luck.
Yes, this is the problem, the rule of two focuses the power of the darkside, but it also vastly increases the danger. If it was a small group, then it would work better, especially if they where spread out in twos or threes.

Mind you, the sith seem to have some sort of safety mechanism in place, after Darth Vader and the Emperor die, there should be no sith. Even when the Emperor returns, Luke kills all his apprentices until he becomes the Emperor's apprentice, before Leia saves him and they get rid of the Emperor again. Yet, years later the Sith return, and corrupt Jacen Solo, so they must have some sort of back-up system.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

JDCHobson's Avatar


JDCHobson
02.16.2013 , 06:19 AM | #5
Sith are eternal. even though the body dies you can imagine the sith spirt lives on. Like Old Ben and Yoda. They could be corrupting young force users.

Master-A's Avatar


Master-A
02.16.2013 , 08:26 AM | #6
Still it is stupid I mean no way 2 sith can take over a wholoe army of Jedi. maybe the 2 sith are poerfull but they are only 2 I bet there are 10 other Jedi just as powerfull living at the same time. The sith turn on eachother thats how it is and have been going on even under the Rule of Two so there aint any stop to that part. Bane thinks himself ise cuz the rule o 2 sounds wise if you hear it but if you think of it it sound so stupid a monkey could end it if somthing goes wrong and it sounds so easy to eliminate. They could only defeat the republic by infeltrating them from the inside wow what a great move nothing to do with the rule of 2 but that was a smart move. if there was more sith they would probebly hold that rule for even longer ofc someone will try kill the emperor to take his place but if the emperor is so powerfull then he will survive the attack like Darth Sidious. The onky time I saw his reall power was in episode III when he overpowerd 4 jedi but the lst one standing was to strong for him alone only the other was so weak they shouldent be Jedi at all. and then he hade a bit of luck against Yoda it looked like.

But the way Darth Vader talks about him sounds like he always wanted to kill him but he knows that the Emperor was to strong for him. How easy is it to follow someone that is weaker to the emperor when one know not everyone will be wanting to follow and help kill to get a new emperor out of fear or pure logic that this will only weaken the empire. the onlhy reson to follow the weaker is cuz he belives it can be done and then it would be easier to kill the new emperor.

I think the system with 1 emperor and a concil model was brilliant only that the emperor never showed himself. that was a bad move all this power and he dont use it itill he get weaker by that his empire somehow is fallng appart by both the sith killing eatch other and they republic demolating his forces. If he was to step up and punish someone a sith for trying to kill another when the republic waring at the same time or a faild officer then the Empire would overpower the republic. Manh concil members have been planing the emperors death and the emperoe knows about it and yet he comes in the last moment and kill them. nd getting new member with nothing more to say and back to the dark. *** give him his insructions his plans on what to do to rule to the concil so that they can pass it over :/

Rule of one was close they did have a concil a leader but the concil was to big. How it should be done is
1 emperor
maybe 8 Concil Members to vote if a drow the emperor gets the last say. ofc the emperor have to like both options and then maybe pic the one from the sides with the best arguments.
make it seven concil members + the emperors. Emperoers vote means 2p and the rest 1p for the concil members.
Only they can be darths the rest is Lords! no 100 darths running around
then there are apprentices and acolytes. the Lord or Darth/Concil member or Emperor get to chose there apprentices. but only the Darths or Emperor Himself cam promote em to Lords and then the Emperor can promote the new Darths.

Lords can hold the tiles of Generals or Commanders in wars and battles.
Apprentices dont have That much power but they only obey there master and his supiriors Concil and Emperor.
Acolyes is nothing they are just like usual soldiers in a risky training Die or Survive and become the apprentice.
Then there are the army and here ranks Moffs or Grand Moffs have as much power as a Lord cuz they aint many and have gone alote longer way to prove themselfs wothy while its so much easyer for the sith to porve himslef by using the force.
So Sith = stronger. Moffs = great leaders deservs some respect and power!

So
1. Emperor
2. Concil Members (Most powerfull sith)
3. Lords (Sith who have proven themselfs) and Moffs/Grand Moff (usuall military who have proven themselfs)
4. The rest of the army with there own ranks whatever + the apprentice get some power over the lower ranks
5. People, Acolytes who is last in line! :P

Thats a brilliant Systme if you ask me but thats only me The Emperor was POWERFUL and SMART but at hte same time so STUPID that even his POWER couldent save his DOWNFALL!
The emperor in my little empire should be showing himself more and direct his men not sit in the darkness and planing things for himself there are no use to you alone if they dont get out to the real world! daaa!
The Progenitor

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.16.2013 , 05:59 PM | #7
There are a lot of problems with the above post:

  • Having an entire government composed of Sith lords and the like instantly removes any chance of a peaceful taking over of the galaxy. The rest of the galaxy does not want that kind of government and is going to fight against it, and even if they do manage to subjugate the people, the people will continue to rebel and the empire will eventually crumble.

    The Rule of Two is better in this respect because you can infiltrate a government and take it over from the inside, minimum resources, maximum results. The people are less likely to rebel because not only do they not know you are Sith, but you've earned their respect as a leader.

  • Having more than two sith lords is far more dangerous than having only two. For example, what happens when the Emperor dies? The 8 Dark Council members all attempt to fill the power vacuum and the empire erupts into a civil war with each member throwing their powerbase against the other. And before that backstabbing is a constant presence, with lesser Sith vying for power and undermining their own empire for personal goals. We see evidence of this in SWTOR.

    And finally the Rule of Two ensures that the Sith will always remain strong and never be diluted, really it works far better with the Sith Code which encourages accumulating power. For how can you gain total power if you share it between other Sith? So Bane was effectively just fixing a contradiction.

Oh and concerning what the OP says. If I were Bane I'd probably reply that those unable to confront and overcome the danger are weak and don't deserve the title of Sith. In that way the Rule of Two roots out the weak and incompetent, if both Sith were to die the Sith would eventually return again. But hey, it never actually happened did it so its not such a big danger after all. The reason why the Rule failed was because Vader abandoned it, really Sidious should have realised his apprentice was weak and broken and destroyed him - then found a new one. That is what Bane would have done.

SNCommand's Avatar


SNCommand
02.16.2013 , 06:27 PM | #8
The Rule of Two is frequently broken for this very reason, it seems every Sith had his or her own secret apprentice and even they might have apprentices, and for some reason they seem to have a few groups of dark side acolytes whenever they need one
Quote: Originally Posted by Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
Personally I would slap Georges hands away from the editing desk, give him a colouring book and then remake the entire prequel trilogy so that Darth Vader uses the force to win breakdance competitions and chokes to death anyone who utters the word midichlorians.

dark_wolf's Avatar


dark_wolf
02.16.2013 , 08:06 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

Oh and concerning what the OP says. If I were Bane I'd probably reply that those unable to confront and overcome the danger are weak and don't deserve the title of Sith. In that way the Rule of Two roots out the weak and incompetent, if both Sith were to die the Sith would eventually return again. But hey, it never actually happened did it so its not such a big danger after all. The reason why the Rule failed was because Vader abandoned it, really Sidious should have realised his apprentice was weak and broken and destroyed him - then found a new one. That is what Bane would have done.
Palpatine himself is interesting to discuss in light of the Rule of Two, because it's questionable how strongly he followed it. After all he took Darth Maul as an apprentice before he killed his own master and began his training in the ways of the Sith. Granted, Zannah did something similar to Set Harth, but she never named him a Darth or truly trained him. Also, didn't Sidious kill Plageious in his sleep? I'm not sure if Bane would consider that in the spirit of the Rule of Two. He said the title had to be "wrenched from the all powerful grasp of the Master." Of course you could argue that if Plaeguis was trusting enough to let Sidous kill him in his sleep then he was too weak to lead the Sith, but it's still debatable.

Scutum's Avatar


Scutum
02.16.2013 , 09:31 PM | #10
I feel that the Rule of Two is the best Sith philosophy to date, simply because it obviously worked in the end. When the Sith ruled over entire empires they were constantly in a state of constant borderline civil war, with each trying to gain as much power as possible for themselves instead of working for the empire as a whole. That makes for an incredibly fragile government, that can only survive if the ones in charge make sure to always be the most powerful. And Darth Malgus single-handedly proved that this isn't always the case.

With only two Sith, infiltration became an option that ended up giving them control of the very Republic that they constantly failed to destroy. Yes it makes for a very possible extinction of the Sith, but it also means that the two that do remain will be the most powerful the order has to offer (or at least its best survivors). Krayt's rule of one was just stupid and egotistical, putting them out in the open and still only having one (crappy) Sith try to handle an entire group of lesser ones alone. That's why the Sith ghosts laughed in his face.

The Sith in general are doomed to fail because of their "top-dog" ethics, making complete unison among them impossible and making every alliance a weak one. While each Sith may be strong, either their lack of numbers or their constant backstabbing will always be the death of them.
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