Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Lethality/Dirty fighting or sab/engineer sniper/gunslinger in RWZ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Lethality/Dirty fighting or sab/engineer sniper/gunslinger in RWZ?

Caeliux's Avatar


Caeliux
02.18.2013 , 07:00 PM | #61
Anyone that thinks one class does better probably isn't doing well in ranked, and has no credit to back up anything but a bunch of biased opinions and youtube videos of them playing as a sniper/gunslinger.

No math statistic or 5 page blog on how a skill tree needs to be played will teach anyone what is best or what will work in a team comp, only those that play daily and are hardcore about it will tell you the facts.

Also;

Being good in a skill tree in any class does not make you a expert in pvp, it makes you one of the millions playing mmo's.

You did not unravel a secret move or skill, other people are actually doing it as well!

One true fact to any composition PvP ranked match is TEAMWORK, not classes.

Yes, the magic word is teamwork.

Enexemander's Avatar


Enexemander
02.18.2013 , 07:03 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Lynfast View Post
Snipers actually are one of the few advanced classes thats all trees are viable. Express dunno why you need to to try to bring down lethality (dunno if its favoritism for marksman or somethin)? Fyi even Nostrums gunslinger is dirtyfightin on some maps as you made argument of some top teams on x-server only uses it but also the top team on your own server uses dirty fightin/lethality...
It's ignorance, more than favoritism. He doesn't have advanced knowledge of lethality (doesn't even know how the dots work). Naturally, it's always the uninformed with the most bullheaded opinions.

Do not let this guy sway you. The best Ranked teams use snipers and they roll lethality heavily in the majority of warzones. If you look up the thread I've provided a link of lethality snipers doing well in ranked.

Where are NoTomorrow's sniper videos? Oh right, he'd rather critique other players and make ignorant remarks rather than show his skill.

Typical.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
02.19.2013 , 12:27 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Lynfast View Post
Snipers actually are one of the few advanced classes thats all trees are viable. Express dunno why you need to to try to bring down lethality (dunno if its favoritism for marksman or somethin)? Fyi even Nostrums gunslinger is dirtyfightin on some maps as you made argument of some top teams on x-server only uses it but also the top team on your own server uses dirty fightin/lethality...
Note how you are carefully wrote "ON SOME MAPS". Because you very well know that any claim about using lethality universally would not stand any criticism. So you've seen ND using DF on a few maps. Nostrum Dollus currently dominates RWZ on Red Eclipse in such a manner that they could get away with anything.
They could bring a lightning sorcerer instead of that lethality sniper or an annihilation marauder and they would .. still. win games. It has NOTHING, NOTHING to do with lethality's viability as a spec.

You need to get past this mentality where: TOP RWZ Team using Lethality =/= Lethality the best RWZ spec.

Quote: Originally Posted by Enexemander View Post
It's ignorance, more than favoritism. He doesn't have advanced knowledge of lethality (doesn't even know how the dots work). Naturally, it's always the uninformed with the most bullheaded opinions.

Do not let this guy sway you. The best Ranked teams use snipers and they roll lethality heavily in the majority of warzones. If you look up the thread I've provided a link of lethality snipers doing well in ranked.

Where are NoTomorrow's sniper videos? Oh right, he'd rather critique other players and make ignorant remarks rather than show his skill.

Typical.
Incapable to bring your own logical argumentations, reliance on the opinions of others to make a point, jumping the bandwagon at opportunistic times just to spit poisonous comments and call people names, yes that pretty much descrbes yourself. Tomorrow some player will tell you that you need to roll Full 31 pts lightning tree and you will follow his advice. Instead of focusing on dicussing lethality, you focus on discussing me. You are more butthurt personally than actually trying to make lethality sound as a viable alternative.

Nobody has yet been capable to give a reasonable answer in this thread to: Why is lethality better than MM or Engineering in RWZ. Those arguments that have been brought before have been dismantled.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

LenrocNewDawn's Avatar


LenrocNewDawn
02.19.2013 , 02:01 AM | #64
Dirty fighting is a PvE spec, period.
Cons for using it in PvP:
1. Long set-up time for the burst.
2. Relies heavy on cleanable DoTs (no, you are not allowed to assume the other team's healers are idiots).
3. Defensive capabilities under perform compared to the other specs (tanks can only taunt in PvP).
4. Crowd control abilities of the DF slinger (and not only) are undermined by the ticking DoTs (my personal deal breaker).

And yes, there are a few very good DF PvP slingers out there but is the man not the spec.
“Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.”

CJnEw's Avatar


CJnEw
02.19.2013 , 02:56 AM | #65
This thread is stupid.
Advance || Turning-point | Ecnavda
<Hey im mvp>

Graziell's Avatar


Graziell
02.19.2013 , 05:47 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by LenrocNewDawn View Post
Dirty fighting is a PvE spec, period.
Cons for using it in PvP:
1. Long set-up time for the burst.
not really longer then other OP acs, full 31er pyro has also 4 GCD to deliver his burst while only one GCD uses elemental dmg
2. Relies heavy on cleanable DoTs (no, you are not allowed to assume the other team's healers are idiots).
Cull still works with the weaker version of the dots
3. Defensive capabilities under perform compared to the other specs (tanks can only taunt in PvP).
4. Crowd control abilities of the DF slinger (and not only) are undermined by the ticking DoTs (my personal deal breaker).
This holds true for rage and pyro, although to a lesser extend. Engineerings AoEs will prevent mezzes aswell.

And yes, there are a few very good DF PvP slingers out there but is the man not the spec.
My main is sawbones and I think cleaning lethality in RWZ is nasty. DPS would have to monitor their debuffs and call out once both dots are just applied on them, since cleaning the weaker version only makes sense to prevent cull. Once you bring 2 DF slinger, like texoc's guild does on our server, cleanse becomes quite useless while both slinger synergize well (31 talent stacks->even higher cull burst).

Also carnage nor pyro fail as tankkiller in comparision to df. Carnage has all white dmg beside scream, so tanks can still evade or shield the attacks. Pyros have white dmg rail shot (evade) and 2 kinetic (read DR) stickies. That leaves only their spam attack+dot which, if both crit doesn't even reach 3k. Good luck killing a 27k tank with that.

My RWZ team used to run with SS slinger, and we value the burst and utility this spec brings. But when your enemy consist mainly of heavy armor classes (2 vg, 1 mando, 2 guardian) it fails to deliver necessary dmg.

JohnElias's Avatar


JohnElias
02.19.2013 , 05:57 AM | #67
Having played Ranked Warzones, the victorious team will be the one who can burn the other team down the fastest. Huttball being the only exemption. On this basis, pressuring heals is necessary to ultimately burn down the other targets. A dead healer will not heal their team.

Having witnessed the burst capabilities of many classes, it's safe to assume that if a healer spends a single GCD to cleanse a teammate or himself, they are prone to large incoming damage which may ultimately result to their downfall. Lethality allows the chance to pressure a healer, forcing them to cleanse themselves and their team.

A Lethality Sniper can also burn through tanks much quicker, than an Engineer or MM. For this reason I would consider using a Lethality Sniper on a Ranked team, because they retain their burst even if cleansed, because their spec allows a dot to be reapplied afterwards, giving Cull full damage capabilities.

These are the reasons why I would bring a Lethality Sniper, but lately I have considered using an Engineer Sniper for the AOE and utility!

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
02.19.2013 , 06:13 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Graziell View Post
not really longer then other OP acs, full 31er pyro has also 4 GCD to deliver his burst while only one GCD uses elemental dmg
It's instant attacks vs a channeling ability. Lethality =/= Pyrotech.

Quote:
Cull still works with the weaker version of the dots
True, and this is why if you commit to lethality, you go full 31 pts in it. Not some stupid hybrids some ppl are adepts of.

Quote:
Once you bring 2 DF slinger, like texoc's guild does on our server, cleanse becomes quite useless while both slinger synergize well (31 talent stacks->even higher cull burst).
Any RWZ team going against a team of 2 lethality snipers has a plethora of options to counter them and overall just exploit the reduced mobility of a team bringing 2 snipers. If you have trouble dealing with them, then you need to make adjustments.

Quote:
Also carnage nor pyro fail as tankkiller in comparision to df. Carnage has all white dmg beside scream, so tanks can still evade or shield the attacks. Pyros have white dmg rail shot (evade) and 2 kinetic (read DR) stickies. That leaves only their spam attack+dot which, if both crit doesn't even reach 3k. Good luck killing a 27k tank with that.
I'll give you that, defense is the only thing that can stand in their way. But definetely not the shield, any ranged/melee crit will ignore the shield all together. Carnage has auto-crit for force scream, on top of having a decent crit chance anyway, Pyrotech will most often have the eliminator set which gives them a high enough crit chance to have the railshots critting often.

At the same time, any aware tank has plenty of warning to LoS the sniper before he gets hit by Cull. And if you happen to deal with a Sin having force shroud.. good luck with Culling.

Quote:
My RWZ team used to run with SS slinger, and we value the burst and utility this spec brings. But when your enemy consist mainly of heavy armor classes (2 vg, 1 mando, 2 guardian) it fails to deliver necessary dmg.
Non-tanking stance heavy armor alone is never a problem for Marksmanship to deal with. Ambush/Aimed shot in warhero gear can already hit them reliably for 5k damage without any problems. For this very reason PT Tanks are the easiest tanks for Marksmanship to deal with. Armor reduction and shield alone are not what makes a tank resiliant against MM. It's the defensive cooldowns which tanks like jugs have at their disposal.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

BambulaGTS's Avatar


BambulaGTS
02.19.2013 , 06:25 AM | #69
I played RWZs back in a day in lethality spec.

To be honest, the only reason was irrational feeling i need to try compete in numbers with monkeys and 1 button bots in damage chart.

Dot/aoe specs have the best potential for going big numbers.

Else how would you explain what are you doing here as dps when everything would double-triple your numbers

PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
02.19.2013 , 07:05 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
It's instant attacks vs a channeling ability. Lethality =/= Pyrotech.


True, and this is why if you commit to lethality, you go full 31 pts in it. Not some stupid hybrids some ppl are adepts of.


Any RWZ team going against a team of 2 lethality snipers has a plethora of options to counter them and overall just exploit the reduced mobility of a team bringing 2 snipers. If you have trouble dealing with them, then you need to make adjustments.


I'll give you that, defense is the only thing that can stand in their way. But definetely not the shield, any ranged/melee crit will ignore the shield all together. Carnage has auto-crit for force scream, on top of having a decent crit chance anyway, Pyrotech will most often have the eliminator set which gives them a high enough crit chance to have the railshots critting often.

At the same time, any aware tank has plenty of warning to LoS the sniper before he gets hit by Cull. And if you happen to deal with a Sin having force shroud.. good luck with Culling.


Non-tanking stance heavy armor alone is never a problem for Marksmanship to deal with. Ambush/Aimed shot in warhero gear can already hit them reliably for 5k damage without any problems. For this very reason PT Tanks are the easiest tanks for Marksmanship to deal with. Armor reduction and shield alone are not what makes a tank resiliant against MM. It's the defensive cooldowns which tanks like jugs have at their disposal.
Leathality has an energy management problem and lacks survivability as a sniper/GS. Stacking vital shots around is nothing but problems for the current bubble stun, stunfestival swtor pvp and don't see how a team running 2 leathilty snipers would appreciate you constantly breaking CC. You are saying as opposed to using the CC mechanic to shutdown the healer you use DoT's to pressure them.

So while you've done that you've just effectively gotten rid of mezz's and bubble stuns effectiveness. I don't know. It seems pretty counter to the games mechanics of Mez the healer. Stun the target. Focus burst.

Maybe you target your dots a bit to coordinate more, but sharp bomb is very hard to do that with.
"At last we will have our revenge" -Darth Maul
▄▄▄▄▄▄▼▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄