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Lethality/Dirty fighting or sab/engineer sniper/gunslinger in RWZ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Lethality/Dirty fighting or sab/engineer sniper/gunslinger in RWZ?

Enexemander's Avatar


Enexemander
02.17.2013 , 07:14 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Suppose I believe you. A few questions:
What build are you running? Do you have ballistic dampers or +10 energy? If you dont have ballisric dampers how do you survive focus fire?
How do you surrive PT Pyros, Smashers and Carnage, assassins?
What is your overall team strategy focus fire? I don't see how lethality synergises with other burst specs. Who do you plan to kill with it? Go for tanks?

Is your team actually winning the games? Do you feel you are really contributing to the team with lethality or you are being carried by them?
I don't think the snipers on Synergy and Strictly Business are being carried. They're obviously winning games.

I think you need to check yourself a bit because you're coming off like a jerk. Every sniper spec has a valid place in pvp and there are many reasons for that. I would hope that someone who took the time to write a fairly decent guide would know that.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
02.17.2013 , 08:08 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Enexemander View Post
I don't think the snipers on Synergy and Strictly Business are being carried. They're obviously winning games.

I think you need to check yourself a bit because you're coming off like a jerk. Every sniper spec has a valid place in pvp and there are many reasons for that. I would hope that someone who took the time to write a fairly decent guide would know that.
Perhaps you should join the army of "i provide no arguments, but i like to rant" posters on this forum. Do you have any idea how does lethality perform in comaparison to other specs? Where are the reasons you are talking about? Define a specific RWZ (NOT UNRAKED, read the thread title) scenario where lethality would be better than the other two specs.

Instead we get random people like you, coming into a thread, looking for opportunities to feed their own egos, throwing random rants like "MM damage is crap, or MM damage is easily negated" without backing up their words. The dude i previously quoted claims lethality is best for RWZ, i want to see him prove his point, which i highly doubt he will.

Because i highly doubt, in a highly competitive RWZ environment, with well coordinated teams, he will be able to seriously contribute given how many downsides lethality has, that have been listed a million times already. For your own sake, i can list just the tip of the iceberg:
  • DoTs alone will kill nobody. You need Cull, which is channeled ability that can be avoided by moving out of LoS
  • Cull has a huge set-up time, your victim will have plenty of time to react to the incoming Cull.
  • Corrosive grenade is on a 12s CD, without it, you cannot use Cull, (or the damage is worthless)
  • Lethality is the SLOWEST Ranged DPS spec at target switching in the entire game. Your reaction to the rapidly changing events is incredibly slow. Good luck on using Lethlality on huttball.
  • Lethality allowing for higher "mobility" is complete ballocks. A sniper out of cover is a DEAD sniper in RWZ, he will get instantly pulled or leaped to.
  • Since your damage matures so slow and you are so squishy (at best you have ballistic dampers, but no siege bunker from MM or no 6% DR and shield probes from Engineering), you are very very juicy target for high burst specs: Rage, Carnage, Pyrotech, all these are almost always seen in RWZ.

No matter how you try to twist this off into your favor, you cannot make lethality look like its Universally better than MM or Engineering for RWZ. If you are being carried by a wonderful team and you play against some random pugs queued for RWZ, of course you gonna say: lethality is viable.


Quote: Originally Posted by ParagonAX View Post
There are a few points that make lethality stand out:
- It puts PRESSURE on enemy healers.
What PRESSURE dude??? There is no pressure here. You are basically doing what healers want: stable predictable, diluted DPS. Spread your DoTs arround so no mezzes will work for your team while they have Kolto probes healing your DoT damage. This argument about lethality doing pressure is a pure joke. Nothing puts a pressure on healer like a stream of 4000 / 5000 hits coming one after another in rapid succession.

Quote:
- They will be spending half the time cleansing than casting heals, and even the best healers may struggle with this.
You are assuming healers are idiots and cannot prioritise and understand what is more important to do: cleanse or cast a heal.

Quote:
- With full lethality, even if your target gets cleansed, lingering toxins means your cull will still do full damage.
This is why any discussion about lethality hybrids is absolute bollocks.

Quote:
- Damage is unmitigated. It makes me cry a bit inside everytime my MM attacks get shielded for 500 damage, or deflected.
RWZ teams will have 2 tanks usually, not 3, not 4. You are making it sound as if every target is wearing a shileld. Besides shields are the least concern for MM snipers, your crit overrides their shielding chance. If you crit with your weapon, the shield doesnt absorb crap. Defense? again there is no problem when you have target acquired available. It's the cooldowns and HP pool that makes them tougher targets for MM. Besides with lethality, you are not going to kill an assassins tank as fast as you would hope to, simply because... force shroud.

I higly doubt that RWZ team leaders will seriously consider Lethality Snipers as the main tank busters in their teams when they have Pyros and Carnage being able to ignore basically the entire armor of the tank.

Quote:
- Again, it puts pressure on healers by doing good damage to 2-3 people, and significant damage to 1 person you are culling. Your job is not to burst someone down, but to get people (alot of time unsuspectingly) to 50% so your PT/Smash can finish them off.
Wrong. What you are basically saying here, is that a lethality sniper's job is to be carried by his team and not be a key DPS component in the team's focus fire efforts. Unless you are engineering focused on staying alive and keeping the WZ objectives safe, your job is very much being an important burst compoent of your team.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

Enexemander's Avatar


Enexemander
02.17.2013 , 08:25 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Perhaps you should join the army of "i provide no arguments, but i like to rant" posters on this forum. Do you have any idea how does lethality perform in comaparison to other specs? Where are the reasons you are talking about? Define a specific RWZ (NOT UNRAKED, read the thread title) scenario where lethality would be better than the other two specs.

Instead we get random people like you, coming into a thread, looking for opportunities to feed their own egos, throwing random rants like "MM damage is crap, or MM damage is easily negated" without backing up their words. The dude i previously quoted claims lethality is best for RWZ, i want to see him prove his point, which i highly doubt he will.

Because i highly doubt, in a highly competitive RWZ environment, with well coordinated teams, he will be able to seriously contribute given how many downsides lethality has, that have been listed a million times already. For your own sake, i can list just the tip of the iceberg:

DoTs alone will kill nobody. You need Cull, which is channeled ability that can be avoided by moving out of LoS
Cull has a huge set-up time, your victim will have plenty of time to react to the incoming Cull.
Corrosive grenade is on a 12s CD, without it, you cannot use Cull, (or the damage is worthless)
Lethality is the SLOWEST Ranged DPS spec at target switching in the entire game. Your reaction to the rapidly changing events is incredibly slow. Good luck on using Lethlality on huttball.
Lethality allowing for higher "mobility" is complete ballocks. A sniper out of cover is a DEAD sniper in RWZ, he will get instantly pulled or leaped to.
Since your damage matures so slow and you are so squishy (at best you have ballistic dampers, but no siege bunker from MM or no 6% DR and shield probes from Engineering), you are very very juicy target for high burst specs: Rage, Carnage, Pyrotech, all these are almost always seen
I think you were so quick to jump up on your high horse that you missed the link I provided earlier that showed at least 2 (and I think I count 3 by the debuffs) lethality snipers in a RANKED warzone match among 2 of the best teams on the Bastion (Synergy and Strictly Business, respectively).

Secondly, I did NOT say that marksman was useless. I like the spec quite a bit. It certainly has it's uses, one of which being better cc synergy.

Please tell Synergy and Strictly Business how useless their snipers are. I'm sure your elitist attitude will sway them.

As for pros for Lethality- It is the highest dps spec for snipers, bar none. It has cleanse protection in a way that engineering, for example, does not. It keeps people in combat via the second application of poisons, which is very useful for a myriad of reasons, one of which is keeping stealthers out of stealth. Pretty important. Of course, lethality is the only useful spec for actually killing enemy tanks. Lethality is the most mobile sniper spec, and for skilled players that actually matters.

All that is true, but the real refutation to your argument is that some of the best players in the game use the spec and use it well. I would suggest that you drop your attitude, create a character on the Bastion, and ask the snipers that do RWZ with it exactly why and what the benefits are. That will take a bit of swallowing of your ego which I'm not sure you're capable of, but you never know.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
02.17.2013 , 08:49 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Enexemander View Post
I think you were so quick to jump up on your high horse that you missed the link I provided earlier that showed at least 2 (and I think I count 3 by the debuffs) lethality snipers in a RANKED warzone match among 2 of the best teams on the Bastion (Synergy and Strictly Business, respectively).

Secondly, I did NOT say that marksman was useless. I like the spec quite a bit. It certainly has it's uses, one of which being better cc synergy.

Please tell Synergy and Strictly Business how useless their snipers are. I'm sure your elitist attitude will sway them.

As for pros for Lethality- It is the highest dps spec for snipers, bar none. It has cleanse protection in a way that engineering, for example, does not. It keeps people in combat via the second application of poisons, which is very useful for a myriad of reasons, one of which is keeping stealthers out of stealth. Pretty important. Of course, lethality is the only useful spec for actually killing enemy tanks. Lethality is the most mobile sniper spec, and for skilled players that actually matters.

All that is true, but the real refutation to your argument is that some of the best players in the game use the spec and use it well. I would suggest that you drop your attitude, create a character on the Bastion, and ask the snipers that do RWZ with it exactly why and what the benefits are. That will take a bit of swallowing of your ego which I'm not sure you're capable of, but you never know.
Again, you trying to borrow from the "authority" of some RWZ teams from a server that you/others claim is the "best" RWZ PvP server, which is again a foolish and stupid attempt to try to win a lethality debate here. Nobody in SWTOR has a damn idea who is the universally best RWZ team. PTS character transfer is still impossible.

So just because some Joe on server X uses lethality, it means nothing. The very same Joe is probably such a good sniper with such a good team, that if he played MM or Engineering, he would have probably completely demolished the enemy team. Neither of you have yet listed the prerequisites in which lethality would do a better job than MM/Engineering. As i said it before, with Carnage and PT Pyro being almost a standard DPS components of many RWZ teams, your job will rarely be to kill the tanks as a sniper.

By your logic, I could support my arguments with something like "hey! best RWZ team uses an arsenal merc - arsenal mercs are viable"

Lethality Highest DPS spec bar none? Are we in a forum PvE section? Are you talking about DoT spamming and thus getting more total damage than MM's single target damage at the end of a warzone? How do you measure that lethality does more damage? Again, you are providing just random rant without arguments. What you cannot deny, is that lethality damage against non-tanks matures much more slower than MM and that is a fact.

Keeping stealthers out of stealth? Jesus Christ, is this December 2011 where stealthers don't know that they ALL have universal DoT cleansing abilities so that they can safely combat stealth?

Again, there is no such thing as mobile sniper spec in RWZ. If you are out of cover = you are dead. At least on Red Eclipse you will get instantly grappled and ganked to death.

Create a character on Bastion? LOL, you remind me of PoliteAssassin, he was also inviting me on his server to prove me how he will beat me with his awesome annihilation marauder. I will stop answering to these trolling attempts.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

Enexemander's Avatar


Enexemander
02.17.2013 , 09:02 PM | #25
I am saying you are confused and have a large ego that you should check, because you are incorrect.

You say lethality is useless for ranked pvp, and I provide proof that some of the best teams do in fact use them, and heavily. If you seriously think that marksman is a better tank killer than lethality, I'm just going to laugh at your incompetence and complete lack of knowledge in how pvp tanking actually works. Here's a hint- unlike in unranked, Ranked Tanks actually use tank gear with tank stats.

If you want to cheerlead marksman, go right ahead. As stated, I like the spec and know it has many pros. However, so does lethality. I have already refuted your argument, and now you're simply complaining.

Here's a little something that maybe you didn't know- when an operative uses evasion to cleanse dots? Yeah, that only counts as one round of dots, and the second pops right up. The second pop is what puts you (and the sniper) in combat again so you have to wait out the timer. Not the main perk of the spec of course (that would be high internal damage) but very useful.

So, to sum up- You say Lethality in Ranked Warzones is useless. I disagree in a cordial manner and show you some of the better teams using lethality snipers to great effect. You come back very disrespectfully and respond with basically "Nuh Uh. Those teams probably aren't even good!" So, as you can see, your argument is weak and holds no merit.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
02.17.2013 , 09:17 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Enexemander View Post
I am saying you are confused and have a large ego that you should check, because you are incorrect.
So you are running out of arguments and resort to personal stuff like mentioning my ego? Good.

Quote:
You say lethality is useless for ranked pvp, and I provide proof that some of the best teams do in fact use them, and heavily. If you seriously think that marksman is a better tank killer than lethality, I'm just going to laugh at your incompetence and complete lack of knowledge in how pvp tanking actually works. Here's a hint- unlike in unranked, Ranked Tanks actually use tank gear with tank stats.
You have dellusions if you interpreted my sentences above as MM > Tanks. Don't try to twist my words in a way favorable to your argumenting.

Quote:
If you want to cheerlead marksman, go right ahead. As stated, I like the spec and know it has many pros. However, so does lethality. I have already refuted your argument, and now you're simply complaining.
I am impartial over sniper specs, but i am certainly not in the favor of people spreading missinformation about lethality in RWZ, especially about how useful it is in relation to
1. Other sniper specs
2. Other classes in the team that can fulfill the same role you are trying to make lethality viable for

Quote:
Here's a little something that maybe you didn't know- when an operative uses evasion to cleanse dots? Yeah, that only counts as one round of dots, and the second pops right up. The second pop is what puts you (and the sniper) in combat again so you have to wait out the timer. Not the main perk of the spec of course (that would be high internal damage) but very useful.
Again you don't understand it. Force shroud, assuming it's not bugged and actually works the way it is intended by the developers, removes everything, lethality DoTs don't reapply even with lethality lingering toxins talents. The operative 1vs1 (no other DoTs applied from somebody else) will have evasion and cleanse available. In case of lethality DoTs he only needs to do both of them to come out clean and cloak safely. Even if he has multiple debuffs on him, evasion will remove them all, and since you are the only one with reapplyeble dots, he only has to cleanse your weakened poisons.


Quote:
So, to sum up- You say Lethality in Ranked Warzones is useless. I disagree in a cordial manner and show you some of the better teams using lethality snipers to great effect. You come back very disrespectfully and respond with basically "Nuh Uh. Those teams probably aren't even good!" So, as you can see, your argument is weak and holds no merit.
There is nothing to sum up here. Even if the best team in the world used a lethality sniper you are implying that they found an actual niche where lethality would peform better than the other 2 specs, with no other classes being able to fulfill that role. Again, CARNAGE, PYROTECH. If the best player in the world has a sufficient margin for dominance with a weaker spec while still having access to a more powerful one, that doesn't make the weaker spec more "viable" as you are trying it to sound.

Again, i hope it will get to you, using analogies, so you can understand better: If some uber leet team will be using Advanced Prototype instead of Pyrotech in RWZ, does that make Advanced Prototype better than Pyrotech?

Good night. May be i will have mood to reply to your rants in the morning. May be not.

PS: Do you want one sick joke? I bet my money, if there ever was a way to identify the best of the best RWZ teams in SWTOR, i am not 100% sure that it will even have a sniper among it.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

Enexemander's Avatar


Enexemander
02.17.2013 , 09:27 PM | #27
I think the fact that you compare lethality to advanced prototype pyrotech in pvp says all about your argument that needs to be said.

Jenzali's Avatar


Jenzali
02.17.2013 , 09:30 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Again you don't understand it. Force shroud, assuming it's not bugged and actually works the way it is intended by the developers, removes everything, lethality DoTs don't reapply even with lethality lingering toxins talents.
Actually, it reapplies through Shroud (I've tested it). They'll just resist the damage from the lingering toxins for the duration of their Shroud but they will be pulled out of stealth on the next tick.
Dashto Vant - Arsenal Mercenary - The most dashing bounty hunter in the galaxy.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
02.17.2013 , 09:34 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Jenzali View Post
Actually, it reapplies through Shroud (I've tested it). They'll just resist the damage from the lingering toxins for the duration of their Shroud but they will be pulled out of stealth on the next tick.
sins say that it is bugged since 1.4 allowing for stuns to pass through and even take damage sometimes.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

rmitchell's Avatar


rmitchell
02.17.2013 , 10:44 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
sins say that it is bugged since 1.4 allowing for stuns to pass through and even take damage sometimes.
that actually has nothing to do with the bug. shroud when its first applied works as a cleanse and then everything afterwards just gets resisted. so if the leth sniper has reoccurring dots his dots reapply through shroud, so you get rid of the first version and just apply the 2nd when you shroud.
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