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"grd plz"


bbare's Avatar


bbare
02.14.2013 , 01:47 PM | #51
Whom to guard is a little more complicated than choosing between a dps and a healer. The priority on guards should go to the dps who is more at risk of pulling at the start of a fight. This would usually be a powertech as they do the most damage in the first seconds of a fight, while they don't have any threat reduction abilities. Classes like snipers, assassins, and marauders who also do a lot of burst damage at the beginning of a fight at least have threat drops.

However, it is perfectly reasonable for a tank to guard a healer given that he knows for a fact none of the dps are a risk to pull. This is pretty uncommon at the beginning of a fight, but it would be fine, if not better to switch your guard on a healer some 30 sec into a fight when aggro is no longer a problem. In fights like TFB HM, it is strongly recommended to do so in phase 2. In fights where healers don't take much damage, it may not.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maelicbod View Post
This is just wrong. My shadow is geared to maintain aggro against DG sentinels who go balls out from the get go of a fight, while still maintain the 30/65/60 mitigation stats that is expected of me. I haven't guarded a dps in quite some time, 50-50 laziness/lack of need. While not all tank classes are created equal where aggro generation is involved, but a blanket claim that tank aggro cannot keep up with DPS aggro is fallacy.
Sentinels have an amazing threat drop. They are quite easy to hold threat against. I'm talking about classes like the powertech. I doubt anyone could hold threat against a well-geared powertech going balls deep without a guard and without you using your taunts. Snipers are pretty damn bursty at the start of a fight too and countermeasures is crap.
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Liam_Smith's Avatar


Liam_Smith
02.14.2013 , 02:07 PM | #52
I never ask for guard when I'm healing, as I would rather the tank guard a dps... It seems to limit the amount of time that I need to take my eyes off the tank and I can usually keep myself up along with everyone else... Usually...

When I'm tanking with my assassin, I'll throw a guard on whoever seems to be taking too much damage after the first couple of pulls, be it the dps or healer... If someone asks for a guard, I'll guard them, but, if I see someone else needs it during a fight, I'll switch...

Although, I did have a healer in one of the really early FPs tell me not to guard anyone because it put too much pressure on them to heal... Maybe guard isn't such a good idea at the lower levels..?
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Liamnor Vosh - 50 Sorcerer Healer
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Banaaj Vosh - 41 Assassin Tank

Viridiana's Avatar


Viridiana
02.14.2013 , 03:02 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Liam_Smith View Post
Although, I did have a healer in one of the really early FPs tell me not to guard anyone because it put too much pressure on them to heal... Maybe guard isn't such a good idea at the lower levels..?
Just sounds like they were a terribad healer, I was healing HM OP's and FP's on my operative with tion/crap gear mix and guard only made it easier cause the threat was back on the tank.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.14.2013 , 03:17 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Liam_Smith View Post
...
Although, I did have a healer in one of the really early FPs tell me not to guard anyone because it put too much pressure on them to heal... Maybe guard isn't such a good idea at the lower levels..?
It sounds like they're confusing the PvP damage transfer from the guarded player to the tank. Doesn't happen in PvE.

-------------------

On another note, when you're talking about complicated boss fights, guards can be very helpful, useful and important. And there is a lot of advice about guards that if followed, will help you master said fight.

When you're talking about trash fights, who gives a c**p really? If your group is halfway decent about kill orders, using CC when needed, not breaking CC when its up, and using their class abilities intelligently, it doesn't really matter if you use guard at all, let alone who gets it. Your group will do fine.

If you have an uncoordinated group with wonky kill sequences, CC breaking, not using taunts correctly, etc. etc. your group is going to be in trouble no matter who you guard.

The problem comes with people who don't understand how threat works, and thinks that guard is some magical solution. "I always guard the healer because it keeps him alive" or some other sillyness.

Guard whoever the heck you want during a trash pull. It will rarely make a difference. During a boss fight, guard the player that pulls aggro.

JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
02.17.2013 , 06:28 AM | #55
oy. Really?

It's standard to guard healers unless you know the DPS is going to pull off. It just makes his job easier. He doesn't have to hold back to avoid pulling threat if he's guarded, and even 5% less damage taken for him means he can heal others that much more.

Single-target boss fights, yes, you generally guard the DPS. Trash pulls, guard your healer. Many trash groups are NOT easily grouped up for all types of tanks to be able to hold aggro on everything. Case in point - Denova trash mobs. They're spread out all over the damn place.

As far as healers never pulling off - just the other day my Sorc healer pulled off the Guard Drouk from EC SM because of the amount of AOE healing needed there. Granted, it's the first time I've ever seen that happen. No, the tanks were not incompetent, nor was I massively geared over them.

It DOES happen. If you know a DPS is going to pull off, then by all means guard him. But with groups of 5-6 mobs or more, your healer's going to pull off first. Period.

Any fight with a lot of adds can benefit from guarding a healer.

That said, there is NO "always/never guard". Adapt, for crying out loud. Every situation is different unless all you do is run the exact same FP or Operation with the exact same group of people in the exact same gear, and even then there's RNG to factor in.

And yes - if I queue into a random HM FP as a healer with people I don't know, I'm going to ask for a guard. If I queue into one as a tank, I'm going to put my guard on the healer. All of this is assuming competent players, by the way - the DPS should be burning down weaker adds, the healer should not be overhealing, etc.

Anyone in my guild will do the same - you guard the healer unless you know someone else is going to pull off.

EDIT: Oh, and "All a tank has to do is hit a mob once and he'll stay off the healer" - first, that's BS. If the tank's taking hits from a large group of mobs, the healer's going to generate more threat healing him than a single basic attack, even from a tank, will generate.

Second, not all tanks have an easy way to hit every mob if they're not grouped up. Juggernaut tanks have exactly three ranged attacks - Charge, Saber Throw, and Force Choke. Two of those have a minimum range and one has a max range of 10 m. I haven't tried Shadow/Assassin tanking yet, and yes, Vanguards/Powertechs have a ridiculously easy time holding aggro on a group, but not every tank can do that.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.17.2013 , 04:32 PM | #56
@JimmyTheCannon, I wrote a long response but the website seems to have swallowed it.

Let me ask you this instead:

Since healer threat per second is heals per second - 50% - 15% / mobs present, what exactly is guard supposed to do?

If NOBODY is attacking a mob, the healer will pull aggro. If ANYONE is attacking that mob, they would out-class the tiny amount of healing threat generated.

JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
02.17.2013 , 04:58 PM | #57
You keep saying that, and yet I pull aggro - and don't tell me I'm overhealing, because I'm not.

I'd like to see definitive proof that healing threat is 50% base before being divided among all mobs. I've also seen people disagree on whether it's actually divided among all mobs or not. ::shrugs::

The guard makes a difference. I've SEEN it make a difference.

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
02.17.2013 , 05:06 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by JimmyTheCannon View Post
You keep saying that, and yet I pull aggro - and don't tell me I'm overhealing, because I'm not.

I'd like to see definitive proof that healing threat is 50% base before being divided among all mobs. I've also seen people disagree on whether it's actually divided among all mobs or not. ::shrugs::

The guard makes a difference. I've SEEN it make a difference.
You're just playing with bad tanks man.

Yes any tank -- including guards / juggs -- who are doing a minimalist AOE rotation will always generate more threat than a healer does.
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JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
02.17.2013 , 05:18 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
You're just playing with bad tanks man.

Yes any tank -- including guards / juggs -- who are doing a minimalist AOE rotation will always generate more threat than a healer does.
When the mobs are grouped up in range of the AOE, yes.

When they're not, it's more difficult and a healer will pull off.

Again - I pulled off on my Sorc healer on the Guard Drouk in EC SM. With experienced tanks. Healers CAN pull off, without overhealing.

And again - unless you know that your DPS is going to pull off, why take the chance? Guard the healer.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.17.2013 , 06:05 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by JimmyTheCannon View Post
When the mobs are grouped up in range of the AOE, yes.

When they're not, it's more difficult and a healer will pull off.
"When they're not", that is basically a situation where nobody is doing any damage on those mobs that are outside the range of the aoe. Then healing is the only thing generating threat.
That is not healer pulling off. That is healer being the only one generating threat on those mobs.

Quote:
Again - I pulled off on my Sorc healer on the Guard Drouk in EC SM. With experienced tanks. Healers CAN pull off, without overhealing.
A guard drouk which stuns people AND resets it's aggro table. You did not pull off anything.

Getting aggro because your still ticking heal over time effects were the first thing to generate threat after a threat reset and everyone else was stunned and/or knocked back and unable to damage it to gain new threat is not pulling off.

Getting attacked by a mob that is programmed to ignore normal aggro mechanics and randomly change targets, also is not the same as pulling off.