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"grd plz"


FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
02.12.2013 , 02:51 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Tank guards DPS during Boss Fights
Tank guards Healer during Trash pulls

If a DPS needs to be guarded during Trash pulls they just suck......
I don't see the point in guarding healers, if the dps haven't picked up all the extra adds (i.e. in cases where you get two dps attacking same target instead of taking an add each) and the adds decide to go for the healer then a guard isn't going to matter much to that particular mobs threat as the healer is still going to be the only one that mob sees as a threat.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.12.2013 , 10:30 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Tank guards DPS during Boss Fights
Tank guards Healer during Trash pulls

If a DPS needs to be guarded during Trash pulls they just suck......
There is no point to ever guard a healer in PvE if the tank and the dps any clue on what they should be doing. Also in almost all cases, when healer does have aggro, having a guard would not really help.

Guard reduces threat generated but it really does not make any difference if someone has 10000 threat or just 8000 threat, if he is the only one to have threat on a specific mob, he will still be on the top of the threat list.

Tanks and dps will generate threat based on the damage they do and will have threat only on those targets they have damaged (not counting taunts etc). Healing threat is spread around to all the mobs you are in combat with.

Therefore:

Healer will ALWAYS have aggro on any and all mobs that neither the tanks or the dps are not doing any damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him.

Healing threat is much lower than threat caused by doing damage (even without any threat multipliers).

Therefore:

Healer will NEVER have aggro on any mobs that the tank OR dps are doing constantly damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him.

In either case, a guard on a healer will do absolutely no difference what so ever. There are very few situations where I can think of guarding a healer would help at all.

If a healer ever has aggro on him, the solution is not to put a guard on the healer. The solution is for the tanks and the dps (if it is a trash group with standard/weak mobs in it too, the dps are as much responsible as the tanks) to learn to hit all the mobs they are in combat with.

Pubsam's Avatar


Pubsam
02.12.2013 , 06:07 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
There is no point to ever guard a healer in PvE if the tank and the dps any clue on what they should be doing.
When I pug I never just assume my DPS know what they're doing. And I don't feel like spending some time grilling them about kill order. So I tend to just put Guard on the healer because I assume I'm the only one with any sense. I'm often right, though I don't have any pride about switching Guard if I get that magical pug DPS who is both well-geared AND well-played.

My Mara is an aggro-ripping machine and I love getting Guard on him, but it happens pretty rarely! But I don't feel like bossing the tank around and potentially starting an argument with someone who is either too dumb or too proud to think I need it. The worst I ever have to do is manually type 'taunt please' and then smile smugly to myself cuz I'm sooooo smart!

But I could also forget Guard and we wouldn't wipe. Wouldn't even come vaguely close to wiping. Probably wouldn't even make a difference. This probably has more to do with the fact that I have target-of-target on and I can tell when I lose aggro. If your tank is failing, it's probably not because he misplaced Guard.
Time for a nap.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.12.2013 , 07:47 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Pubsam View Post
... So I tend to just put Guard on the healer because I assume I'm the only one with any sense. ...
It sounds like you need a better understanding of healer threat mechanics.

Not only is healer threat 50% of healing done, there is an additional 15% threat reduction from the healer skill tree (e.g. Foresight for Sages), and then the threat is divided among the mobs present.

Let's say your healer is doing 1500 hps and there are 4 mobs present. 1500 hps - 50% - 15% / 4 mobs = ~160 threat per second per mob. If you guard the healer that goes down to 120 tps. How is this helping?

If the healer is pulling aggro with 160 tps, it's because nobody is attacking that mob. Reducing threat down to 120 tps is going to do exactly jack diddly squat.

steave's Avatar


steave
02.12.2013 , 08:22 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
It sounds like you need a better understanding of healer threat mechanics.

Not only is healer threat 50% of healing done, there is an additional 15% threat reduction from the healer skill tree (e.g. Foresight for Sages), and then the threat is divided among the mobs present.

Let's say your healer is doing 1500 hps and there are 4 mobs present. 1500 hps - 50% - 15% / 4 mobs = ~160 threat per second per mob. If you guard the healer that goes down to 120 tps. How is this helping?

If the healer is pulling aggro with 160 tps, it's because nobody is attacking that mob. Reducing threat down to 120 tps is going to do exactly jack diddly squat.
Exactly. A guard on a healer is a wasted guard since it does absolutely nothing.

KariTalRathe's Avatar


KariTalRathe
02.12.2013 , 08:41 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Sydexlic View Post
DPS generate 1 threat per 1 damage done. Before any modifiers. DPS also, do not get any threat reduction talents.
DPS do get threat reduction abilities, though you may not see them deployed often enough. I haven't got a PT and someone has already pointed out that they are the only DPS class without some kind of threat reduction.

steave's Avatar


steave
02.12.2013 , 09:03 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by KariTalRathe View Post
DPS do get threat reduction abilities, though you may not see them deployed often enough. I haven't got a PT and someone has already pointed out that they are the only DPS class without some kind of threat reduction.
He said talents, not abilities. Healers get the abilities too, but have a talent in addition to it.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.12.2013 , 09:46 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Pubsam View Post
When I pug I never just assume my DPS know what they're doing. And I don't feel like spending some time grilling them about kill order. So I tend to just put Guard on the healer because I assume I'm the only one with any sense. I'm often right
"Often right"? No, you are not, if you think guarding healer helps at all.

Next time instead of reading just the first line, try reading the whole post.

Do I really need to explain it again?

Healer will ALWAYS have aggro on any and all mobs that neither the tanks or the dps are not doing any damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him.

Healer will NEVER have aggro on any mobs that the tank OR dps are doing constantly damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him.

In either case, a guard on a healer will do absolutely no difference what so ever.

Healing threat is so low it is impossible for them to overaggro anyone else who has threat. The only time healers will have aggro is when they are the only one in the mob's threat list. It does not make any difference what so ever if you have guard on a healer to even further lower his threat, because if they are the only one in that target's threat list, they are still on the top of the threat list.

ronniehenlau's Avatar


ronniehenlau
02.13.2013 , 01:59 AM | #29
I did a Lost Island hardmode some time ago (random group w/ group finder) on my tank. When I zoned in, I saw it was a premade from a guild (3 from the guild + me). I figured this was gonna be a nice easy run, since everyone was decently geared. As normal, I guarded the marauder in full black hole gear (slightly optimized). I wasnt certain he would pull aggro, but it was either him, a sorc healer or a sorc dps (lol).

The marauder then went on and on about that I should guard the healer. I told him that guarding the healer had little to no point in this game, as healing barely generates threat, and if I hit a mob once with my basic attack, that's enough to hold aggro off the healer.

The marauder went on and on about this shait, even to the point where the other dps from his guild told him to stuff it. He refused to stop, and said 'If I were the healer, I would leave'. He then did a vote-kick on me (the tank, and you know.. tanks are easy to get for LI HM). Both the other guys voted no, of course, but I told him to shove it and left. I whispered the other dps that I had nothing against him or the healer, but that I wasnt gonna spend that entire flashpoint beeing berrated by a clueless dps. He whispered back and said 'Lol dont worry, I left that stupid group as well'. I then queued again once my lockout expired, got an instapop for LI, searched for Lost Island, and saw that outside of my group, the only people in LI was, you guessed it, the marauder + healer :P
Checked again after we killed lorrick.. Yep, they were still in there. Good times.

Maelicbod's Avatar


Maelicbod
02.13.2013 , 09:06 AM | #30
There is a reason to guard a healer and I'm rather surprised that after 3 pages of discussion it hasn't be stated. If a tank can hold aggro against DPS, guarding a healer is a viable alternative if nothing more then for the 5% reduction in damage the healer would take. Granted the 5% could just be given to a dps, but frankly I'd rather my healer take less damage.