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"grd plz"


Zamppa's Avatar


Zamppa
02.23.2013 , 07:21 AM | #91
Just bringing my two cents to the topic now that I have something to tell you

I was running my daily HM and the Foundry popped out also the group seemed to be nicely geared so in we go. At the first conversation running in the background I asked for the Jugg tank if he could guard my BH marauder and I got the guard although the around BH geared sorc healer started to whine loundly and continously he would absolutely need the guard. The tank left the guard on me still and in we went but the healer let the tank to die against the first groups of thrash there and went on aggroing the groups first and did not care to heal the tank. The tank asked the healer to play nicely but he refused which made the tank to leave before the first boss.

After that we had a verbal "fight" with the healer who was really acting and behaving like a douche. He insisted "he is so damn awesome with his heals that he always needs guard because he creates so much aggro...And his guild's tanks always guard on him!" I really had to laugh at him and I let him know how hilarious he sounded. When GF popped us a new tank the healer got his guard then.

The "fun" did not stop there though! From the first boss to HK he was not healing me at all because "my attitude was rubbish" Well I just killed normals on those groups then and let the others aggro and kill the silvers and golds. I also let them know during the convo with HK-47 that I will only kill adds during the fight as I won't get healed. Suddenly the mood for the healer changed and he stated "oh okey then, get over it and lets just do this" Well we finished Foundry rather nicely but my ignore-list still got one new name onto it...
"What can you say - I'm a talented individual"
- Revan to Bastila on Taris

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
02.23.2013 , 08:23 AM | #92
Bottom line, you do not guard healers in standard PvE. It is a waste. If the healer has aggro, you did something wrong, end of discussion. Healing aggro is negligible, and guard will not keep mobs off a healer if you are ignoring the mob.

If you attack the mob AT ALL, you will hold it off the healer.
Mikal'B, Battlemaster and Fleet Commodore of the Republic.
<Contraband Inc> 10/10 NiM, 4/4 NiM, NMP, 7/12 NiM, HM GF, 4/5 NiM
Jedi Covenant

Sydexlic's Avatar


Sydexlic
02.23.2013 , 06:25 PM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by Never_Hesitate View Post
And what's the reason to guard the healer if you can easily keep the mob? he will not get a lot of dmg as no mobs attack him
Because phase 2 TFB, threat isn't an issue, but you may as well have the damage reduction on someone, why not a healer. 2 people in your raid taking 95% of their usual damage is better than no people in your raid guarded.

JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
02.23.2013 , 10:57 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by Sydexlic View Post
Because phase 2 TFB, threat isn't an issue, but you may as well have the damage reduction on someone, why not a healer. 2 people in your raid taking 95% of their usual damage is better than no people in your raid guarded.
Actually, in Phase 2 of TFB the threat *is* an issue. Healers will steal aggro far too easily in there if they're not guarded, because the tanks are doing minimal damage to the Terror even with their full rotations.

Additionally, if there's any aggro held over from the first phase (honestly not sure if there is), it'll all be on the healer because the tanks weren't able to hit the boss there.

I don't think anyone who's done the fight will dispute the need to guard the healers in the second phase of the Terror fight. It's guarding healers any other time that's at issue here.

Ruskaeth's Avatar


Ruskaeth
02.25.2013 , 08:16 AM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by RandomXChance View Post
At first I was sort of miffed by your rant, but then became amused. You realize we are talking about the flip side of the same issue? I was laughing at the way many DPS ask for guard without any checking of who else is in the raid and are they really the one who needs it most. You are talking about lazy tanks that just throw guard on whoever for no good reason and without inspecting. Just had this in Xenoanalyst II fight on HM 16 man. Tank put guard on marauder with most HP. On inspection, 2 snipers and another marauder were far more a threat due to good optimization and higher damage. Deciding who to guard involves some understanding of how all the classes work and that is something that takes time to learn.

Lazy and poor playing abound, its is just most apparent when the tank is guilty and most common (maybe just by sheer numbers) in DPS.
Oh no, you were actually miffed? Then became amused? Good, because my "rant" was written in mockery of this thread and intended to be the spiky flip side view. Awesome that you got the drift.

To the topic, I appreciate good tanks a lot. Most of all classes really. Of course it's more visible as a tank for someone to portray they haven't even bothered to read their tooltips, let alone trying to figure things out. General explanation would be that this game is casual. People play it casual. This is not limited to tanking as it limits a lot of dpses and healers also.

Gree event has opened my eyes to yet another thing: General awarness of pug groups. Normal EVE player (or HoV competitive player) would DPS the Xenoanalyst II on HM after first try while watching a presidential debate and not missing a word and still "doing ok".

I actually wish they'd insert a fight scoreboard showing damage taken/healed/damage done/threat generated -after the pull is over. Then it would just disappear. It would give those "wot u mean zomg" -people an idea of what is possible. I know, casuals would hate it, ie. 80% of the player base but .. shrug. I just see it as something to motivate them to work things out, or god forbid, ask about their class from someone.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
02.25.2013 , 08:43 AM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by JimmyTheCannon View Post
Actually, in Phase 2 of TFB the threat *is* an issue. Healers will steal aggro far too easily in there if they're not guarded, because the tanks are doing minimal damage to the Terror even with their full rotations.

Additionally, if there's any aggro held over from the first phase (honestly not sure if there is), it'll all be on the healer because the tanks weren't able to hit the boss there.

I don't think anyone who's done the fight will dispute the need to guard the healers in the second phase of the Terror fight. It's guarding healers any other time that's at issue here.
Oh, I will dispute the "need" (if by "need" you imply it is too hard to do without) to guard healers even there.

I have done it even on hardmode without guarding healers. Besides if you were to ever do it in 16-man you would have less tanks than healers, and could not guard them all, and would have to device a way to keep aggro off unguarded healers anyway. Although I did only 8-man in HM, I still did not even bother guarding healers.

It is only before the first tank switch that you run a high risk of loosing aggro to healers. So all you have to do is to have the first tank to begin by using both his single taunt and aoe taunt to build threat, then few seconds later have the second tank to taunt it and use both his single taunt and aoe taunt to build up threat. If that second tank is Assassin/Shadow he can also stand in the outer circle and use Force Shroud/Resilience to make himself immune to the damage he receives for 5 seconds, so there is not even any pressure for healers to switch targets all the time. Then after 5 seconds the first tank will taunt it back to himself, and hold it until the first scream when they need to tank switch for real. After having done all this the boss has been taunted so many times, that with the way taunts multiply your threat, the tanks will no longer loose aggro to healers, and will continue to just tank normally.

The last 20% is a bit tricky too, but it can be handled too.

Does it benefit to guard healers in this fight? Yes it does. It is one of those rare fights where normal aggro mechanics are not in place so it actually does benefit to guard healers.

Is it necessary to guard healers there? No, not really. You can do it easily enough even without it.

partylikeaturtle's Avatar


partylikeaturtle
02.25.2013 , 09:21 AM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by Ruskaeth View Post
I actually wish they'd insert a fight scoreboard showing damage taken/healed/damage done/threat generated -after the pull is over. Then it would just disappear. It would give those "wot u mean zomg" -people an idea of what is possible. I know, casuals would hate it, ie. 80% of the player base but .. shrug. I just see it as something to motivate them to work things out, or god forbid, ask about their class from someone.

I really want to see this. The "threat generated" column could be pretty amusing sometimes, as I am positive (as a healer) that I have gone through flashpoints (both pre-50 and HM) where one dps was generating more threat than the tank waaay too often

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.25.2013 , 12:08 PM | #98
Very easy to get group information for a regular raid group, just make a group log and have the group upload their combat log to TorParse. You will get your score card.

Anyone in a progression group should be doing this at least occasionally, especially when the group is having trouble getting past a certain boss. Just need to be careful to use it as a tool for the entire group to get better and not a bragging trophy.

Upload combat logs or parse should not be punishments; they should be use as tools to make the group better. Then you know if you are pulling your weight and can work to improve. Isnít that the entire point of playing a social game, is to have the team win?

SturmUndSterne's Avatar


SturmUndSterne
02.25.2013 , 12:24 PM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
Very easy to get group information for a regular raid group, just make a group log and have the group upload their combat log to TorParse. You will get your score card.

Anyone in a progression group should be doing this at least occasionally, especially when the group is having trouble getting past a certain boss. Just need to be careful to use it as a tool for the entire group to get better and not a bragging trophy.

Upload combat logs or parse should not be punishments; they should be use as tools to make the group better. Then you know if you are pulling your weight and can work to improve. Isnít that the entire point of playing a social game, is to have the team win?
SwMoniTOR actually has a threat generation graph overlay, as does Mox Parser, I believe.

Asavrede's Avatar


Asavrede
02.25.2013 , 12:26 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
It's akin to telling a healer who to shield.

Past that, in the OPs case, no columi geared DPSer -- regardless of how good they are -- is going to pull off a geared Assassin.
No it isn't - lots of tanks forget to set guard, and I've seen immensely poor play from "Warstalkers". It is in no way a bad idea to remind people to use their abilities if they dont by themselves.