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Ranking PVE DPS


bbare's Avatar


bbare
02.07.2013 , 03:27 PM | #1
This is a mostly subjective list based on my experience with each of the classes in pve. The rankings are based on damage potential, uptime, and utility. This list assumes skill level and gear is constant. This list is not intended to sway others to another class, nor influence guilds to not accept certain classes in their raids. Every dps class is viable with the right skill.

Melee:

1A Marauder/Sentinel: This class has the highest damage potential, good uptime, and amazing utility. It is a must have in a raid due to group speed boost and group damage boost. Any raid group would benefit tremendously from bringing along a good Marauder/Sentinel. They also have a leap with no minimum range and the lowest CD interrupt, making them the undisputed kings of interrupts.

1B Powertech/Vanguard: Although single-target damage potential is slightly less than the marauder, this class makes up the difference with great aoe damage. Having a powertech along can help you tremendously in fights that require excellent aoe (NiM Kephess!.) Having an off taunt can also make fights like T&Z and F&S much easier on the group. Powertechs are also awesome at target switching, making fights with adds much easier.

2A Assassin/Shadow: Assassins do considerably less damage than a marauder and powertech. Their only advantage over both the marauder and powertech is that they have stealth CC to make trash pulls easier. Aoe damage isn't bad when spec'd into madness, but it doesn't rival a Powertech. Like the powertech, taunts can be useful.

2B Juggernaut/Guardian: Damage output compares to the Assassin. They also have taunts as well. However, they do not have stealth CC which makes Assassins slightly more effective. Aoe damage also isn't great assuming you are spec'd into vengeance. They do have an armor debuff, but it is rare you will not have a Jugg tank, arsenal merc, or sniper in your group.

3. Operative/Scoundrel: Damage is the lowest of any class in the game, and they have terrible uptime as a melee dps without a gap closer. The one saving grace of an operative dps is that they have the ability to stealth and have the best CC in the game, but it isn't like trash is hard in this game anyway.

Ranged:

1. Sniper/Gunslinger: Snipers are the marauders of ranged classes. They rival marauders in single-target dps and have good uptime. They don't have the group buffs the marauder has, but they do have an armor-penetration debuff that is handy if you don't have an arsenal merc or juggernaut. Like the marauder, snipers are an excellent choice for any raid group. Snipers are primarily dependent on orbital strike for aoe damage, but a lethality/engineering hybrid will shine in aoe damage with their 3 sec cd frag grenades.

2. Merc/Commando : Mercs do significantly less damage than their sniper friends, but having a merc in a raid group makes it unnecessary for another class to keep up an armor penetration buff. The arsenal merc's tracer missile is a staple of the rotation, which ensures armor penetration up at all times. This improves the effectiveness of your sniper, because they don't have to waste GCD's on keeping up that debuff. Off-heals can help as well, if needed. Mercs also provide very good aoe damage as well.

3 Sorc/Sage: Sorcs do slightly less damage than mercs, with no armor debuff. The one advantage sorcs have over mercs is that they are more fit to provide some off heals if needed. Sorcs have a large force pool, meaning throwing in some off-heals will make less of an impact on resource management. Aoe damage is pretty good for the sorc in lightning, madness, or hybrid spec, mostly because force isn't much of a problem and force storm has no CD.
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Marak's Avatar


Marak
02.10.2013 , 06:21 PM | #2
I take issue with this list, but only in the extreme outliers. On the whole, I would agree with it.

However--

Well played assassins actually have higher potential DPS than the other melee. Operatives (lethality anyway) are also not as awful as most people make out. My operative is my 3rd deep alt and I can still parse 1800+ most of the time in just 61s. I would go so far as to say lethality operatives are actually pretty damn good. Concealment is terrible in a PvE setting though, true.

Ranged is true for the most part, but I would say sorcs and mercs are closer to equal given the encounter-- arsenal mercs are just easier to play so they probably do better within the margins of the average user. Snipers are definitely a head above the competition though.
Cag - Juggernaut | V'ae - Sorcerer | V'ay - Mercenary
<The Jyse Legacy (50)> | Jedi Covenant
Aenik - Assassin | Vhay - Operative | K'rie - Sniper | Vhae - Marauder

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.10.2013 , 06:51 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Marak View Post
Well played assassins actually have higher potential DPS than the other melee. Operatives (lethality anyway) are also not as awful as most people make out. My operative is my 3rd deep alt and I can still parse 1800+ most of the time in just 61s. I would go so far as to say lethality operatives are actually pretty damn good. Concealment is terrible in a PvE setting though, true.
I don't know about that.

The sims that generated such high numbers were probably a little optimistic, and no one has gotten *remotely* near the ideal DPS numbers. Either it takes an inhuman precision to play, or the sim is wrong. People have been successful near-matching sim numbers on Marauder and Powertech, so I'm inclined to think the sim for Sin was optimistic.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

bbare's Avatar


bbare
02.10.2013 , 09:31 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Marak View Post
I take issue with this list, but only in the extreme outliers. On the whole, I would agree with it.

However--

Well played assassins actually have higher potential DPS than the other melee. Operatives (lethality anyway) are also not as awful as most people make out. My operative is my 3rd deep alt and I can still parse 1800+ most of the time in just 61s. I would go so far as to say lethality operatives are actually pretty damn good. Concealment is terrible in a PvE setting though, true.

Ranged is true for the most part, but I would say sorcs and mercs are closer to equal given the encounter-- arsenal mercs are just easier to play so they probably do better within the margins of the average user. Snipers are definitely a head above the competition though.
There is no way assassins have higher dps potential than the marauder or powertech. It isn't even close. An assassin in full dread guard gear can reach about 2k, while a marauder or powertech in similar gear can reach 2.2k+ Its about a 10% difference. Same with the operative. Your operative in 61's can parse at 1800, while my powertech in 61's can parse at 2100. 300 dps difference is a pretty large gap.
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AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
02.10.2013 , 10:54 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by bbare
1. Sniper/Gunslinger: Snipers are the marauders of ranged classes. They rival marauders in single-target dps and have good uptime. They don't have the group buffs the marauder has, but they do have an armor-penetration debuff that is handy if you don't have an arsenal merc or juggernaut. Like the marauder, snipers are an excellent choice for any raid group. Snipers are primarily dependent on orbital strike for aoe damage, but a lethality/engineering hybrid will shine in aoe damage with their 3 sec cd frag grenades.
I just want to expand on this portion for accuracy:
  • The Sniper/Gunslingers do have a group buff. Ballistic Shield/Scrambler Field provides 20% damage reduction for all allies within 10 meters of the player for 15 seconds. That's a huge group buff and really benefits the group in burst damage phases where healers could use the help.
  • While most specs are dependent on Orbital Strike for real AOE damage, don't forget that Engineering produces the best AOE damage in the game. Plasma Probe is really powerful, and Experimental Explosives does make Fragmentation Grenade better in full Engineer than the hybrid's. If you're lacking AOE damage, bring a Sniper/Gunslinger who knows their Engineering/Saboteur tree. They can put out great single-target DPS (albeit lower than hybrid and Lethality) and burn through trash faster than a Rage spec'd Jugg or Pyro Powertech.
Quote: Originally Posted by bbare
1A Marauder/Sentinel: This class has the highest damage potential, good uptime, and amazing utility. It is a must have in a raid due to group speed boost and group damage boost. Any raid group would benefit tremendously from bringing along a good Marauder/Sentinel. They also have a leap with no minimum range and the lowest CD interrupt, making them the undisputed kings of interrupts.
You may want clarify the bolded portion is only for Annihilation Marauders/Watchman Sentinels, not all three specs benefit from these effects.

bbare's Avatar


bbare
02.11.2013 , 07:11 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
I just want to expand on this portion for accuracy:
  • The Sniper/Gunslingers do have a group buff. Ballistic Shield/Scrambler Field provides 20% damage reduction for all allies within 10 meters of the player for 15 seconds. That's a huge group buff and really benefits the group in burst damage phases where healers could use the help.
  • While most specs are dependent on Orbital Strike for real AOE damage, don't forget that Engineering produces the best AOE damage in the game. Plasma Probe is really powerful, and Experimental Explosives does make Fragmentation Grenade better in full Engineer than the hybrid's. If you're lacking AOE damage, bring a Sniper/Gunslinger who knows their Engineering/Saboteur tree. They can put out great single-target DPS (albeit lower than hybrid and Lethality) and burn through trash faster than a Rage spec'd Jugg or Pyro Powertech.

You may want clarify the bolded portion is only for Annihilation Marauders/Watchman Sentinels, not all three specs benefit from these effects.
Yes, I know snipers have ballistic shield. I just said they don't have the group buffs the marauders have. Ballistic shield is good, but it isn't as good as predation and bloodthirst. Snipers have to be in cover to use ballistic shield, and most of the time when large amounts of raid damage go out, it is when you need to be moving.

Engineering has the best aoe in the game, but engineering snipers have less than good single-target damage. I'm assuming players take the optimal spec of lethality or lethality/engineering. Even in fights like Kephess EC where lots of aoe damage is needed, Lethality/engineering snipers are more beneficial than engineering ones, because their single-target damage is much better. The trenchcutters phase is more dependent on strategy than having the most aoe damage you can muster. Engineering snipers are very good at trash. There is no argument there. However, trash in this game is very easy and bringing along a class that is spec'd for trash pulls is not optimal.

I'm assuming all pve marauders are going annihilation. Although carnage is close in damage, annihilation brings more utility to the group with more efficient interrupts and group heals.
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AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
02.11.2013 , 10:07 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by bbare View Post
Yes, I know snipers have ballistic shield. I just said they don't have the group buffs the marauders have. Ballistic shield is good, but it isn't as good as predation and bloodthirst. Snipers have to be in cover to use ballistic shield, and most of the time when large amounts of raid damage go out, it is when you need to be moving.

Engineering has the best aoe in the game, but engineering snipers have less than good single-target damage. I'm assuming players take the optimal spec of lethality or lethality/engineering. Even in fights like Kephess EC where lots of aoe damage is needed, Lethality/engineering snipers are more beneficial than engineering ones, because their single-target damage is much better. The trenchcutters phase is more dependent on strategy than having the most aoe damage you can muster. Engineering snipers are very good at trash. There is no argument there. However, trash in this game is very easy and bringing along a class that is spec'd for trash pulls is not optimal.

I'm assuming all pve marauders are going annihilation. Although carnage is close in damage, annihilation brings more utility to the group with more efficient interrupts and group heals.
I'd have to disagree on Ballistic Shield as I find it to be a lifesaver in most encounters where a group may be under-geared, but you're right the the crutch is that the Sniper needs to remain in cover unlike Predation that gives a defensive increase and movement increase.

I'm not sure what you mean by "less than good" single-target DPS for an Engineer. I agree with you that its single-target DPS can't reach as high as hybrid or Lethality, but don't underestimate the single target of the Engineer. I parse ~2k DPS in Saboteur spec, yes that's lower than me in Dirty Fighting but its still more than what's needed for Nightmare EC, and it is better than what some classes can muster in their best spec. Granted, this partially relies on the target staying in Incendiary Grenade/Plasma Probe which can't always happen (I'm looking at you Kephess), but the first few ticks (the more powerful ones) occur at the beginning and tick faster than the later ones so you can still squeeze in great DPS if you have the timing down. Also, a Engineering spec'd Sniper is nice to have on the Trencutters if you only have Marauders and Assassins DPSing alongside you. While strategy is important, you still need to be throwing out some AOE damage to get by. You're of course right about trash pulls, it isn't necessary, but free respecs are fun.

bbare's Avatar


bbare
02.11.2013 , 10:35 AM | #8
I agree with you that engineering dps is high enough to complete any content in the game. That isn't what I was arguing. I was arguing that engineering is not as good as full lethality or the hybrid. When I mean "less than good dps" I mean in comparison to the other specs in the class. My OP assumed that each class was using the optimal spec for their class, which both of us should agree is lethality or the hybrid. I agree that Engineering is only better in the rare cases where you are only composed of marauders and assassins in NIM EC. If that happens to be the case, engineering is probably best for the sniper, however it would be a rare occasion. How many guilds run NiM EC with two marauders, an assassin, and a sniper? I would bet it is pretty rare.

I agree that ballistic shield has some good use, but that also wasn't what I was arguing. I was arguing that the combination of utility of marauders is higher than the sniper.
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Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.11.2013 , 12:13 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by bbare View Post
I'm assuming all pve marauders are going annihilation. Although carnage is close in damage, annihilation brings more utility to the group with more efficient interrupts and group heals.
Kind of a silly assumption, what with field respec and all...

Warlord Kephess and the latter half of TFB (from Operator IX onward) have enough baked-in downtime that Carnage is advantageous in its lack of wind-up and on-demand burst ability. Annihilation DPS is punished severely if Annihilator stacks cannot be maintained, and with equal uptime between Carnage and Annihilation, the former will pull ahead in such situations.

Carnage and Rage are both better for trash-killing between bosses, as well.

More frequent interrupts are handy on Warlord Kephess (depending on strategy) and of limited application on bosses otherwise. Handy for trash but there's never a shortage of available interrupts on trash either.

Self-healing is less noteworthy after the nerf and not what I'd consider a compelling reason to choose one spec over another. As with any other DPS, the spec which can do the most damage is the most optimal, and which spec that is depends on the fight in question and the group's tactics.

Annihilation is still a very strong spec, and virtually peerless when blessed with near-100% uptime. I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that a Marauder should be spec'd Annihilation.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

bbare's Avatar


bbare
02.11.2013 , 01:34 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Kind of a silly assumption, what with field respec and all...

Warlord Kephess and the latter half of TFB (from Operator IX onward) have enough baked-in downtime that Carnage is advantageous in its lack of wind-up and on-demand burst ability. Annihilation DPS is punished severely if Annihilator stacks cannot be maintained, and with equal uptime between Carnage and Annihilation, the former will pull ahead in such situations.

Carnage and Rage are both better for trash-killing between bosses, as well.

More frequent interrupts are handy on Warlord Kephess (depending on strategy) and of limited application on bosses otherwise. Handy for trash but there's never a shortage of available interrupts on trash either.

Self-healing is less noteworthy after the nerf and not what I'd consider a compelling reason to choose one spec over another. As with any other DPS, the spec which can do the most damage is the most optimal, and which spec that is depends on the fight in question and the group's tactics.

Annihilation is still a very strong spec, and virtually peerless when blessed with near-100% uptime. I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that a Marauder should be spec'd Annihilation.
Carnage will definitely parse higher in some fights like Operator IX, TFB and Kephess, but it isn't that big of a difference and the extra utility will benefit more than the minimal amount of damage. When I said "Carnage is close in damage," I meant that most of the fights, annihilation will be better. On average, annihilation will put out more damage. It may vary in some fights like the ones you and I mentioned. If your group is getting down the mechanics perfectly, but having problems with enrage timers, definitely switch to carnage. If your raid group is very experienced with Kephess NiM and you just want to set some kind of dps record for the fight, go with carnage. But if your group is on a progression run, the super interrupts and group heals will probably outweigh the amount of damage you would get from carnage. Annihilation should probably be used when you are leaning a new raid, because it just provides less room for error, because of the group and self heals.

I probably worded my original post a little wrong. It seemed like as a marauder, you should never go anything else but annihilation. What I meant was, all marauders should use annihilation predominately. Carnage should be reserved for certain fights if you do not need the extra utility of annihilation and there is lots of downtime. My point to the person who responded to me there was if you compare the sniper utility to the marauder utility, the marauder utility will be much better than sniper utility, especially in annihilation spec. It really was a moot point anyway, because carnage marauders still have more utility than snipers.
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