Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Sin Tank - Clarification on stat caps

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Sin Tank - Clarification on stat caps

Darth_Caedes's Avatar


Darth_Caedes
02.06.2013 , 10:41 AM | #1
Hello,

I've been pouring through some of the pages here and I'm a little confused on Assassin tank stat goals as I see many different opinions spanning between last year and the year before.

Should Sin tanks be looking at 25% Defense, 65% Shield, and 60% Absorb? I've seen others mention that 30% Defense is the way but I'm not too sure. I've seen other posts stating that you'll lose too much endurance if you aim for 65% shield and 60% absorb but I'm a believer of mitigation over an endurance cushion.

Can anyone light my path?

Caedes

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.06.2013 , 11:47 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Caedes View Post
Can anyone light my path?
First off, I'll assuage your worries concerning not having enough Endurance if you go for a lot of mitigation: you'll get all of the hp you *need* naturally, just improving your gear. By "need" I refer to ~25k for 8m and 26-27k for 16m. Anything more than those numbers for the relevant group size is redundant and just exists as either epeen or a "don't freak out" cushion for your healers (good healers won't freak out when you drop to 5k hp because they'll realize you just took a big hit and it's not an "omg, tank is gonna die!" moment).

Secondly, the basic goal numbers for a Shadow tank in aug'd BH/Camp gear is 30/65/60. Those numbers go up slightly depending on your choice of relics (passive Defense relic is gonna push your defense up a percentage point or two) and a bit more when you hit DG/Hazmat tier (my tank stats, without using any passive relics, are ~31.5/67/62).
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Darth_Caedes's Avatar


Darth_Caedes
02.06.2013 , 12:00 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
First off, I'll assuage your worries concerning not having enough Endurance if you go for a lot of mitigation: you'll get all of the hp you *need* naturally, just improving your gear. By "need" I refer to ~25k for 8m and 26-27k for 16m. Anything more than those numbers for the relevant group size is redundant and just exists as either epeen or a "don't freak out" cushion for your healers (good healers won't freak out when you drop to 5k hp because they'll realize you just took a big hit and it's not an "omg, tank is gonna die!" moment).

Secondly, the basic goal numbers for a Shadow tank in aug'd BH/Camp gear is 30/65/60. Those numbers go up slightly depending on your choice of relics (passive Defense relic is gonna push your defense up a percentage point or two) and a bit more when you hit DG/Hazmat tier (my tank stats, without using any passive relics, are ~31.5/67/62).
Thank you for the feedback, it's greatly appreciated.

haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
02.06.2013 , 01:43 PM | #4
I do not have my spread sheet in front of me but I can tell you my stats which are as close to optimal as attainable as far as keeping stat weights even.
28.4k hp
29% defence.
66 shield
61 absorb

If I remember correctly the stat weights are just about even at that point. My mitigation is not as high as kintrus because due to my guild running 16 man ops regularly (nm EC, him tfb) and to the fact as the shadows self heal being a part if our mitigation I've taken the 27b mods in my dread guard gear giving me the endurance needed for 16 man nm EC as well as upping my HPS which in and of itself was a more effective form of mitigation then raw mitigation because of their soft caps.

Generally considered optimal stats in full dread guard with 1 elite war hero def. Relic and a DG healing relic are:
28.4k HP
30% def
66-67% shield
And 61-62 absorb.

Hope this was helpful good luck out there

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.06.2013 , 01:56 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by haksilence View Post
as well as upping my HPS which in and of itself was a more effective form of mitigation then raw mitigation because of their soft caps.
With 28.4k hp rather than 25k hp, you're managing all of 18 hp/sec extra, which isn't as much as you think, especially considering your lower Defense (I'm managing a higher Defense chance *without* using a passive PvP relic and I'll end up with higher Abs thanks to the tanking proc relic I use). You're also going to have substantially worse threat generation and DPS compared to me because I've not only opted to maximize my mitigation by using unlettered mods and high shield enhs but also minimized my Endurance by using Resolve hilts and armoring and Power crystals (my threat is well and truly disgusting; DPS burn their CDs and adrenals right from the start and I've still only had threat pulled off of me twice ever, and that was only for a split second in the opening volley of the fight). If I swapped out my Resolve armorings and hilt for Force Wielder and crystals for Endurance, my set up would go up to 26.5k hp, which is enough for 16m. There's no real need to get more hp than that.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.06.2013 , 04:31 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
With 28.4k hp rather than 25k hp, you're managing all of 18 hp/sec extra, which isn't as much as you think
Assuming 2k pre-mitigation weapon DPS (a fairly average value for a boss) and 30/65/60 defensive stats and 40% DR from armor. That's a post-mitigation DPS of 512. 18 HPS is a reduction of 3.5% on this value, which is equivalent to an added 2.46% defense chance, which is an additional 135 defense rating (assuming a base rating of 510, which is required to achieve 30% defense chance with all talents). This weighs against the 311 Endurance required to achieve the jump between 25k and 28.4k.

Unfortunately, things are not quite as clear cut as the above paragraph indicates. For starters, we're talking about swapping defense for endurance at a better-than 1:1 ratio on the 27B mods. Specifically, the ratio is 11:5 (endurance:defense). Thus, we aren't trading 311 defense for 311 endurance; we are trading 141 defense for 311 endurance. That puts the numbers very, very close even in this (highly simplified model).

The other very important thing to consider though is that only 69% of damage in the current top-tier endgame is subject to defense. This makes the calculation significantly more complex, so I'm going to leave it for now, but I think it's safe to say that it will make more than a 6 stat-point difference in the final outcome, and not in favor of defense.

In other words, 18 HPS is exactly as much as I think it is, and I think it's quite a lot. Even from a pragmatic mitigation stacking standpoint, where the goal is to reduce requisite HPS, the B mods are unquestionably best in slot. Once you add to this the fact that Endurance *does* add a healer cushion (of debatable, but clearly non-zero value), it seems very clear that this is the correct itemization for shadow tanks. I would *not* recommend the same approach for guardians or vanguards though.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're also going to have substantially worse threat generation and DPS compared to me because I've not only opted to maximize my mitigation by using unlettered mods and high shield enhs but also minimized my Endurance by using Resolve hilts and armoring and Power crystals (my threat is well and truly disgusting; DPS burn their CDs and adrenals right from the start and I've still only had threat pulled off of me twice ever, and that was only for a split second in the opening volley of the fight).
I don't know about Jaberse, but my DPS is always comfortably above 750, and often pushing 800. Based on your response on an earlier thread, I understand that you have more DPS (as well you should, with your itemization), but not *substantially* more. Even at 800 DPS, I have no idea how you hold agro in the opening volley of every fight without using guard and/or taunt. Once you factor in threat multipliers on abilities, 800 DPS corresponds to about 1950 TPS. That's very solid, but my Combat Sentinel breaks 2.4k DPS for the first 15 seconds of every fight (w/ Adrenal, Inspiration and average crits). Even with a guard, that's a pretty close call on threat. Without a guard, I would be face tanking within seconds of hitting the boss. I really would very, very much like to meet you on the PTS sometime, because I honestly would love to know *how* you can keep threat without guard/taunt against that kind of onslaught.

In any case, trading willpower for endurance *obviously* results in a loss of threat, but based on the DPS numbers, it's just not as significant as you're making it out to be.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.06.2013 , 05:57 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I don't know about Jaberse, but my DPS is always comfortably above 750, and often pushing 800.
800 is my lowball DPS number. A lot of the current fights have DPS downtime and whatnot that prevent me from actually getting my full DPS on over the entire course of a fight. On Writhing Horror, where I don't get to AoE whatsoever and, in fact, based on my guild's strat, actually forces me to stand still and do nothing for 10 seconds every couple of minutes (to let the Incubation stacks fall off without summoning adds by using Force Cloak), I still break 800 DPS (I use MoX's parser so the combat stealth doesn't screw up the parse DPS info; I'll actually watch my listed DPS drop while I'm just standing there).

The difference between getting 750 dps and 800 is a difference of 6.67%. If you consider the fact that 800 is my *lowball* and I could probably push 850 if it were pure tank and spank without aggressive movement etc. whereas most other tanks list their 750 *as the pure tank/spank case*, it becomes a difference of 13.3% difference. Both of those are remarkably substantial when you consider the percentage differences in total damage/threat generation, so I feel pretty comfortable saying it's a "substantial difference" (not to mention that I've run with other full 63 tanks, Shadows included, and, if I'm not the first tank, I *will* pull threat within the first 30 seconds without using taunt).

I understand the hp-as-mitigation-through-increasing-self-healing argument, but I just don't see the gains as being particularly relevant compared to all of the problems with threat generation and DPS throttling that go along with it, especially when doing some comes at the cost of direct mitigation, which is why I don't support using the B variant mods. Force Wielder Armorings and Hilt, I can understand (and generally recommend for people that aren't quite as crazy as me), but B variants are directly reducing both your threat generation and direct mitigation to increase your hp and self-healing-as mitigation. As such, I don't see the point.

Of course, as long as you're not using Fortitude augments to push yourself to 30k+ hp, I'm not likely to make a point of it (since that's explicitly suboptimal and serves only to bolster epeen rather than effectiveness). I prefer the holistic approach to tank itemization rather than just focusing on staying alive, but, considering the laughable state of post-start-of-combat threat in TOR, I can understand focusing entirely on mitigation even if it does come at the cost of threat.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.06.2013 , 11:00 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I understand the hp-as-mitigation-through-increasing-self-healing argument, but I just don't see the gains as being particularly relevant compared to all of the problems with threat generation and DPS throttling that go along with it, especially when doing some comes at the cost of direct mitigation, which is why I don't support using the B variant mods. Force Wielder Armorings and Hilt, I can understand (and generally recommend for people that aren't quite as crazy as me), but B variants are directly reducing both your threat generation and direct mitigation to increase your hp and self-healing-as mitigation. As such, I don't see the point.

Of course, as long as you're not using Fortitude augments to push yourself to 30k+ hp, I'm not likely to make a point of it (since that's explicitly suboptimal and serves only to bolster epeen rather than effectiveness). I prefer the holistic approach to tank itemization rather than just focusing on staying alive, but, considering the laughable state of post-start-of-combat threat in TOR, I can understand focusing entirely on mitigation even if it does come at the cost of threat.
The bolded is pretty key, in my opinion. Threat is so trivial that I don't see prioritizing DPS as a big concern, at least not in situations where gear actually *matters*. There are very few situations you *can't* taunt-stack at the start of a boss fight to establish an insurmountable base of hate in the first 15 seconds.

I think the B-mods-as-optimal argument does play if your healers don't consign a major part of self-healing to the overhealing bin, and if you are efficient at maximizing HS/HD stack generation. If you don't prioritize maximizing self-healing, I would totally stick with unlettered mods.

I would tend to gear very similarly to Tam, but the co-tank I run with is much more comfortable in full mitigation. He makes less efficient use of his CDs and self-healing, so the higher passive mitigation does help keep his DTPS closer to my own. I'd rather trade off a small amount of mitigation pool for better mitigation against all damage types (via self heals).
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
02.06.2013 , 11:11 PM | #9
I find this a very interesting discussion since my Sin is in line with Keyboardninja's build and my Shadow is in line with Kitru's. I always gear them differently so that I can compare the two, because I have always loved this debate.
(I will even admit to at one point trying a 30K+ type build....but that was more out of a sick and morbid curiosity than anything. My healers have never let me live it down either )


Seeing as I play them both pretty equally (as far as time and content played), my question becomes....Is there a happy medium between the two?
TORVA NEX! (The Site) (The Video)
"You don't have to say more than that!!"
Grumpf =Tankasin / G'rumpf =Mara / Gru'mpf =Jugg / Grum'pf =P-Tech
Grump'f =Shadow / G'rump'f =Scoundrel / Gr'umpf =Operative / Jei'Dahl =Merc

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.07.2013 , 12:11 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Grumpftard View Post
my question becomes....Is there a happy medium between the two?
Honestly, there isn't really any major difference between the two other than ideology. As I pointed out, the difference in actual HP is less than you might think, especially if you're using Force Wielder armorings/hilt already. Even the differences in real mitigation is minor at best. The argument simply persists based upon ideological lines even though the differences are miniscule.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.