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The Scrapper's Handbook: A PvP Guide

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
The Scrapper's Handbook: A PvP Guide

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
02.04.2013 , 10:57 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
Thanks for the responses guys. I will definitely be working on the Warzone section to get that finished (Going to start right now, in fact).

Re: Crit Chance
I keep my crit at around 34% buffed, with both Sage and Smuggler buffs active plus my Rakata stim (not to mention full Datacrons and Companion boosts). 35% is technically the diminishing returns point as far as I know, but 34% is as much as you need to get SF to the 50%+ Crit Chance range. I prefer the rest in Power, which also necessarily means an arbitrary amount of Surge (the Power and Surge stats are on the same mods).

Re: Sorcerers and Bubble Stun
I need to add this to my opening post, but if you are trying to 1v1 a sorcerer who is guarding a node, you need to wait for their Bubble to expire. Even the best Sorcerers get bored while guarding a node and might forget to rebubble right away. That is your time to strike so you can avoid that first 3 second stun. Other than that, Hallowed is totally right: Right after that bubble goes up you need to strike, so they can't immediately rebubble after the knockdown. Bubble has a really silly 5s CD, so you need to put in a lot of damage in between the shields.

Re: Fighting good Sorcerers
If you go up against a sorcerer and get stomped the first time, you need to switch things up for the second round. Let's assume you can't reach the Sorc before his Escape comes back out (if you can, he can't break out of your Dirty Kick). So you need to start from scratch with all CDs up.

Let's make things even harder and give the Sorc a bubble that stuns you after SF.

1. SF + FR. Sorc knocked down for 1.5s. You are blinded for 3s.
2. Sorc uses Force Speed and runs away while you become unstunned.
3. Pop Sneak and run towards your opponent, throwing Thermal Grenade
4. Sorc uses Force Slow when you are in Range
5. Counter with FLASHBANG!!!

At this point, Sorc does NOT have full resolve (your Knockdown resolve has dissipated). If Sorc does not use his CC break, you are going to run up to him, drop Sabotage Charge (Flashbang still working), fire Vital Shot (no DOT tick until the next GCD), and then fire Backblast + FR. By now the Sorc is really wishing he had used his CC break. Keep kiting and fighting until his resolve starts to drop. Then you can either restealth to finish him off or just use Dirty Kick, force the CC break, and follow up with more roots and melee attacks.

If the Sorc DOES use his CC break on the Flashbang (he probably will), keep running up to him with Sneak and fire Tendon Blast to keep him rooted. Sorc will probably stun. Crack the stun, rush forwar and Dirty Kick before he can use his Whirlwind. Now you have 4 seconds to stack SC and BB + FR, all while Vital Shot is still ticking. After he comes out, if you can't finish the fight right away and are worried about whirlwind, restealth to finish him off.

I am sure a decent DPS sorc could get into this conversation and devise yet another hypothetical for surviving our combos, and then we could brainstorm STILL ANOTHER hypothetical to beat him. Thankfully, PvP is more dynamic than that (As we have all pointed out), so if you keep these tips in mind, we should have all the more tools at our disposal.
First off I don't understand why the sorc is waiting until you are within 10m to slow you for him slow is a 30m range. If you are within 10m you can flashbang him as you pointed out so why would he let that happen?

Second you can't "follow up with melee attacks." Your scenario didn't ever get the sorc to waste his knocback, so if you vanish reopen he's going to knock you back before you get anything besides SF and 1 melee move of your choice. You need to account for the sorc/sages knockback, and at least 1 root, (5second root on knockback if bubble stun speced 2 second root with heavy dot if full madness spec)

Third, you opened with SF/FR which means you flashbang dot will be broken by the FR tick, so you won't get as much time to set up the SC and VS as you are implying.

I do agree that in a WZ situation is they are solo guarding you can make them waste the CC breaker the first time, and then come back quickly and kill them with your second life and hopefully take the node. But if that is the only solution we have do dps sorcs belong in the easy opponent category or the very difficult opponent category?

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
02.04.2013 , 11:00 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelofCain View Post
sorry 3 secs, I am one of those cybertech baddies that will throw one at distance and tag a sorc. usually a sorc will always try to run as soon as they get up you can also tag them there instead of shiv. it's all a matter of how you look at stuns and distance.
That's fine and its a potential solution i've thought up before as well, but they can tag you right back with the same grenade, and I see no reason that they shouldn't. Once again, leaving distance in their favor.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.04.2013 , 11:48 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Asunasan View Post
First off I don't understand why the sorc is waiting until you are within 10m to slow you for him slow is a 30m range. If you are within 10m you can flashbang him as you pointed out so why would he let that happen?
Sneak (50% move bonus) + Sneaky talent (15% move bonus in combat) > 50% slow on Force Slow. You will still be able to close the distance to 10M even after he slows. I forgot to add range to his Slow from 10-->30, but your in-combat speed still lets you gap close to Flashbang range.
Quote:
Second you can't "follow up with melee attacks." Your scenario didn't ever get the sorc to waste his knocback, so if you vanish reopen he's going to knock you back before you get anything besides SF and 1 melee move of your choice. You need to account for the sorc/sages knockback, and at least 1 root, (5second root on knockback if bubble stun speced 2 second root with heavy dot if full madness spec)
Forgot that I excluded the root from the opening 6 seconds (he sped away and you Flashed before he could use it). So let's insert it later in the fight. Let's say that the Sorc knockbacks and roots after our second opening. Immediately throw in Thermal Grenade. If your health is lower than comfortable, use Underworld Medicine. If it gets interrupted, switch to Kolto Pack, consuming the UH stacks from the SF and BW you just used. If your health is comfortable, duck down to cover and fire one Charged Burst at your target. At this point, if damaged, the root will wear off. Re-use Sneak (it is back after reapparing from Disappearing Act) and gap-close.
Quote:
Third, you opened with SF/FR which means you flashbang dot will be broken by the FR tick, so you won't get as much time to set up the SC and VS as you are implying.
I might have been unclear about the timing that ensures Flashbang isn't cracked by the DOT. Let me just rewrite the whole thing to explicitly guarantee that we account for the FR expiration. The whole FR lasts 6 seconds.
0-1.5s: SF + FR
1.5-3s: Stunned from bubble
3-4.5s: Sneak/Thermal Grenade
4.5-6s: Wait until you see that last FR tick and then at around 6.5s, Flashbang

Now we should be right back on track. If for whatever reason that timing still doesn't work, just add in a single Flurry of Bolts after the Grenade. Or even an Overload Shot if you are in range (you probably won't be).

Quote:
I do agree that in a WZ situation is they are solo guarding you can make them waste the CC breaker the first time, and then come back quickly and kill them with your second life and hopefully take the node. But if that is the only solution we have do dps sorcs belong in the easy opponent category or the very difficult opponent category?
The thing is, if the Sorc does not have his CC breaker up, he's probably just going to die. This is especially true against full Madness Sorcs who can't spec into Backlash for Bubble Stun. Those guys are actually just dead if they lack their breaker, because you can drop them from full to half completely uncontested. Given the 30s CD of your opening combo (SC + Kick), you are going to be winning far more fights than you are losing. Only in the full CD 1v1 is there anything close to a contest, and even then, it's only against Sorcs with Backlash. I am pretty sure that everything I have discussed above puts the fight well into your reach.

I might move the fight up to moderate if the Sorc can break from your opening Kick, but these guys are just nowhere near as scary as Pyros or Sins.

EDIT: And just to test this, I am going to go Sorc hunting in the next bunch of WZs, just to see how all of these tactics fare in the real world. I will report any relevant findings.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

AngelofCain's Avatar


AngelofCain
02.05.2013 , 12:16 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Asunasan View Post
That's fine and its a potential solution i've thought up before as well, but they can tag you right back with the same grenade, and I see no reason that they shouldn't. Once again, leaving distance in their favor.
negative, most sorcs won't break a grenade stun or if they do hit your sprint to close the gap. then pin them in place. when you run up to them you know they are going to overload so flashbang instead of backstab so they get cc'ed while you get pinned.

Crackshot look for Disappearing, got to lvl 8 tonight. gimme credits for speeder training and I'll pay you on Hallow.
Hallow, ägronä, <Status unknown> -(Concealment Operative)
Elite Warlord (since1.2) // Warzone Annihilator

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
02.05.2013 , 12:50 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
Sneak (50% move bonus) + Sneaky talent (15% move bonus in combat) > 50% slow on Force Slow. You will still be able to close the distance to 10M even after he slows. I forgot to add range to his Slow from 10-->30, but your in-combat speed still lets you gap close to Flashbang range.

Speed buffs aren't additive only the biggest one is used. so 50% not > 50% so no I don't see us getting into flashbang range after he speeds away

Forgot that I excluded the root from the opening 6 seconds (he sped away and you Flashed before he could use it). So let's insert it later in the fight. Let's say that the Sorc knockbacks and roots after our second opening. Immediately throw in Thermal Grenade. If your health is lower than comfortable, use Underworld Medicine. If it gets interrupted, switch to Kolto Pack, consuming the UH stacks from the SF and BW you just used. If your health is comfortable, duck down to cover and fire one Charged Burst at your target. At this point, if damaged, the root will wear off. Re-use Sneak (it is back after reapparing from Disappearing Act) and gap-close.

Again sneak won't let us regap close. Also any time we spend healing means force speed, and their bubble are close to being available, if either one actually becomes available again, we lose. I also think its a better move on the sorcs part to hit you with the knockback as you try to run at him with sneak, if by some mirracle you do actually make it into 10m.

I might have been unclear about the timing that ensures Flashbang isn't cracked by the DOT. Let me just rewrite the whole thing to explicitly guarantee that we account for the FR expiration. The whole FR lasts 6 seconds.
0-1.5s: SF + FR
1.5-3s: Stunned from bubble
3-4.5s: Sneak/Thermal Grenade
4.5-6s: Wait until you see that last FR tick and then at around 6.5s, Flashbang

Now we should be right back on track. If for whatever reason that timing still doesn't work, just add in a single Flurry of Bolts after the Grenade. Or even an Overload Shot if you are in range (you probably won't be).

Flashbang adjustments noted, but you still aren't taking into account the socrs stun or insta ww/lift. when you open after using DA in your scenario he can after cc breaking the dirty kick, lift or stun you, you cc break, he does the other and walks away. Again.

So our damage in total comes out to 2 shoot firsts 2 Flechette rounds, roughly 2 thermal grenades, 1 vital shot, and a flurry of blots here and there. Unless you adjust the scoundrel's reactions I we don't get the backblast/sab charge, because we never get close enough to flashbang


The thing is, if the Sorc does not have his CC breaker up, he's probably just going to die. This is especially true against full Madness Sorcs who can't spec into Backlash for Bubble Stun. Those guys are actually just dead if they lack their breaker, because you can drop them from full to half completely uncontested. Given the 30s CD of your opening combo (SC + Kick), you are going to be winning far more fights than you are losing. Only in the full CD 1v1 is there anything close to a contest, and even then, it's only against Sorcs with Backlash. I am pretty sure that everything I have discussed above puts the fight well into your reach.

I might move the fight up to moderate if the Sorc can break from your opening Kick, but these guys are just nowhere near as scary as Pyros or Sins.

EDIT: And just to test this, I am going to go Sorc hunting in the next bunch of WZs, just to see how all of these tactics fare in the real world. I will report any relevant findings.

I agree that if they don't have a CC breaker we just insta win. I disagree that bubble stun is necessary for them to win. Force speed, knockback, 30m slow, stun, and insta mez are enough that you can never get off more than 2 melee attacks in a row against them even without the bubble stun. Our ranged attacks aren't enough to finish them if we only get 2 melee attacks twice once from open, once from DA
Responses in bold.


Quote: Originally Posted by AngelofCain View Post
negative, most sorcs won't break a grenade stun or if they do hit your sprint to close the gap. then pin them in place. when you run up to them you know they are going to overload so flashbang instead of backstab so they get cc'ed while you get pinned.
I wouldn't expect them to CC break the gernade, I would expect them to grenade you right back. Sounds like you are using a mez gernade so assume they do the same as soon as you hit them or the grenade wears off. I suppose it does buy 1 extra melee attack though. The flashbang idea doesn't work unless we didn't apply FR when we opened. 5 second root on the knockback if hybrid means our dot will tick and break the flashbang before we can move. If they are full madness we might again get another melee attack since their root is a seperate global, but between the grenade and the flashbang they now have full resolve and we have accomplished a SF a BB and maybe a BW?

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.05.2013 , 02:39 AM | #26
I am going to start this entire Sorcerer fight over again from the very beginning because this conversation has devolved into a spree of hypotheticals following from hypotheticals. In some respects this was my fault (e.g. I did not mean to imply that Sneak+Sneaky stacked, but rather that they both worked together over the course of a fight to help you gap close). So for now, I am going to just work through the different scenarios from the start of a fight, taking everything that has been said into mind.

Again, we will assume the Sorc does NOT have a CC Break. If he does not, you should get so far ahead in the first 5.5 seconds of damage that he just can't recover. We all can agree on that.

Let's start with a lightning spec, some variation of a 0+/17+/17+ guy who has access to Instant Whirlwind, Electric Bindings, and Backlash (Bubble Stun). This is probably the scariest target you can encounter, so we will start here. I will also try and give him his optimal abilities in the fight to worsen our position as much as possible.

0-1.5: Open with SF+FR. Bubble Stun pops.
1.5-3.0: Sorcerer speeds away. Bubble Stun in effect.
3.0-4.5: Sneak + Thermal Grenade. Sorcerer uses Force Slow and continues to sidestep back.
4.5-6: Flurry of Bolts while charging. Sorc uses Death Field and continues to sidestep back.
6-7.5: Vital Shot. Sorc continues to sidestep back and re-bubbles.
7.5-9: Charged Burst. Sorc fires Affliction while moving back.
9-10.5: Thermal Grenade stacked with the previous Burst + VS pops Bubble, excess damage goes through. Immediately Evasion/Restealth. Sorc tries to lay down an AOE to get you out of stealth. Be smart and dodge it.
12-13.5: Gap close smart and fast. SF+FR. NO BUBBLE STUN!! Sorc knocked down.
13.5-15: Backblast+FR (inefficient, but we need the 65%+ BB Crit damage). Sorc Overloads and knocks back while moving away.
15-16.5: Sabotage Charge. FR+VS cracks Charge. Sorcerer Speeds away.
16.5-18: Thermal Grenade and Sneak. Sorcerer fires Shock or rebubbles

At this point, you have endured a few ticks of Death Field, 1 Force Slow, a tick of Affliction, and maybe 1 Shock. You are basically at full HP!
The Sorcerer, however, has eaten 2 Thermal Grenades (at 3.0 and 16.5), 10s of Vital Shot, a full SF (at 12), 2 full FRs (from 1.5-6 and 12-18), a Backblast, and a Sabotage Charge. Assuming no mitigation or expertise bonuses from damage and just adding up those numbers, and also assuming ZERO crits, that's 16k damage: 2800 (2 TGs), 1600 (10s VS), 2700 (SF), 4420 (2 FRs), 2300 (BB), and 2600 (SC). And that ignores all of the stuff that got mitigated by the Bubbles , some of which will definitely go through (1 SF, some of an FR DOT, a Charged Burst, a Thermal Grenade, and some of a VS DOT), all of your Expertise, and any chance of critting on any of those abilities.

Let's make it more complicated by reducing the Sorc damage to basically 0 but adding in even more CC.

4.5-6: Flurry of Bolts while charging. Sorc uses Electrocute or Whirlwind.
6-7.5: You CC break whatever he cast and immediately DA. Sorc tries to find you but you aren't an idiot so he can't.
7.5-9: You close gap. Sorc re-bubbles.
9-10.5: Now comes something clever. Instead of SF+FR and popping the bubble, you are going to Sleep Dart. Sorc will have almost full resolve, but not quite full. Notice how you did not VS in 4.5-6 here, so no DOT will break the Dart. If Sorc escapes the first dart, immediately re-dart (10.5-12). Pop out of Stealth but DO NOT SF. You now have 8 seconds to work. Drop Sabotage Charge (12-13.5). Drop Freighter Flyby (13.5-16.5). Fire VS (16.5-18). Walk up and finish with BB+FR (18-19.5). SC alone won't break the Dart mezz. Flyby doesn't proc its first damage for 3 seconds. VS won't tick until after you BB. So when the Sorc wakes up, they take a Flyby tick, an SC, a VS tick, a BB, and an FR tick all at once. Sure, the Bubble will then stun you, but the Sorc still ate a ton of burst that went entirely unanswered.

9-10.5: Let's say that you Dart the Sorc and he realizes what you are doing. He doesn't crack just yet. He waits for the opportune moment.
10.5-12: You drop SC. No need for Sorc to break because he isn't in danger.
12-13.5: You start to channel Flyby. At this point, he sees you are going to stack damage and he cracks CC. You are standing with your back facing the nearest wall/solid object. Sorc spams Overload and gets it off.
13.5-15: You get knocked back into the wall no more than 10m away. Throw Flasbang. His resolve is now full. Re-channel Flyby (15-16.5), fire VS (16.5-18), walk up and BB+FR. Boom. We are back where we were even if he didn't crack the Dart.

Both scenarios end with a bad situation for the Sorc. At this point, you have been hit by 1 Electrocute and 1 Force Slow. Your enemy has taken damage from 1 SF, 1 FR, 1 TG, 1 Flurry, 1 SC, 1 tick of Flyby, 1 BB, and 1 tick from VS+FR. All together that's about 15k damage: 2700 SF, 2200 FR, 1400 TG, 1000 Flurry, 2600 SC, 2400 BB, and 1 tick each of Flyby (1900), FR (350), and VS (150). The Sorc got two bubble absorptions in there, but all the rest went through. And again, that assumes no help from Expertise or Crits. You are now thousands of HP ahead in the fight.
(As a note, I have tried that SC + FLYBY + VS + BB/FR combo, and it works without cracking the CC until the very, very end. Lag would mess it up, but barring a bad connection, you WILL get all that damage off.

I can keep going like this, but I think it is pretty clear that EVEN WITH THE SORC CC BREAKER, Scrappers should be coming out on top of almost every engagement. There are still 2 big danger zones. The first is the restealth. If the Sorc can find you preemptively, then you are in trouble. If you can avoid the Sorc AOEs and tactically close the gap, then you will be fine. This just comes down to player vs. player skill.
The second is positioning. After you Dart, you have a chance to get your back to a wall to avoid a 10m+ knockback. But if you can't find that wall, this was a stupid fight to pick anyway. Never, ever fight things in the open as a Scrapper. Doing so raises the difficulty of all our fights by 1 level because you can't heal, can't LOS, and can't kite to let DOTs work.

If the Sorc doesn't have Bubble, he is well and truly screwed because then you can TB as he tries to run away every time. I can go through that contingency as well, but I think the point is clear.

And remember, everything above only applies if their breaker is up!! So only once every 2 minutes. If it isn't up, you just auto-murder them in the first few seconds of the engagement and there is nothing they can do to answer it. Hence, why this fight remains "Easy".

Finally, if it isn't clear, I'm definitely not trying to argue with you personally. I am just trying to work through the hypothetical DPS Sorcerer puzzle.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
02.05.2013 , 06:12 AM | #27
Fine piece of work, plenty of great information in there.

Probably the best class guide I've seen.

A few points I'd like to offer:
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
ARMORINGS
As you have all probably noticed, PvP set bonuses are awful for Scrappers. The Field Tech 2 piece bonus is decent, but the 4 piece bonus is actually not intended for our class. The Enforcer 4 piece bonus is alright, but the 2 piece bonus is utterly worthless. To maximize your WZ performance, you need to think outside of the box and turn towards PvE set bonuses.
The Enforcer 4-piece bonus is terrrible. We need to stay above 60% energy to keep our energy regenerating at optimum rate. Sure, we can burn our energy to try and kill someone, but then we're in a Flurry-of-Bolts-shaped hole. And if it doesn't come off we're boned.

The Enforcer 4-piece bonus gives you five extra energy - but because the regen bands go by percentages this means your optimum energy band moves from 60-100 energy to 63-105. The set bonus gives us a massive 2 energy extra in our top regen band. Woo and a big old hoo.

The Enforcer PvP 2-piece bonus - an extra second of white damage immunity, useful when getting shot, leapt at or Ravaged - is actually better, in my opinion. But the Enforcer PvE 2-piece (+15% crit on Back Blast) plus the Field Tech PvP 2-piece (3secs = 1 tick extra on Flyby) are probably the optimum choice.

Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
34% BUFFED CRITICAL CHANCE [list][*]Your crit diminishing returns actually start a bit higher than this, but 34% is the magic number because of your talents.
There is no magic number. There's no reason 34.0% is magically better than 33.9%, other than a 0.1% chance to crit. The text makes it sound like there's a sharply defined limit where none exists. The general point about not stacking crit at the expense of power is fair (though you shouldn't ignore crit and just go power either of course, but I think you cover this in the general talk about how scrappers can't just stack one thing).

Secondly, there isn't a single diminshing returns curve on crit chance. There is one DR curve on the crit chance you get from Cunning, and another DR curve on the crit chance you get from Crit stat. These two figures, plus base 5% and any buff boosts add up to your total crit chance, the 34% or whatever that people talk about.

Cunning can give you a big chunk of it. This means that once you start stacking enough Power, it reaches a point where Crit becomes a more powerful stat - you will do more damage with Crit than Power. This is because the crit chance you get from Crit isn't reduced by all the extra crit chance you get from Cunning, etc. Mouse over the crit chance stat in the Tech tab of your character sheet to see the breakdown.

Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
CUNNING, SURGE, AND POWER[list][*]1800+ Cunning
Cunning is your best stat because it contributes to bonus damage, bonus healing, and critical chance. Its diminishing returns curve is also very generous. Most importantly, your 9% bonus cunning talent makes cunning even better for Scrappers than for other DPS classes that don’t have that percentage bonus skill. Between stims, gear, and buffs, you want to be at least pushing 1800 cunning (I am at 2000).
Not totally clear - the bonus damage from Cunning has no diminshing returns, it's flat increase like that from power. The crit chance elenet DOES have diminishing returns (though calculated separately to those on Crit stat).

Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
[*]78% Surge Bonus
Surge hits diminishing returns at around 75% bonus damage,
Diminshing returns don't start at 75%. They start at zero Surge (as for all stats with DR in SWTOR). Surge does have a steep DR curve though, with lots of benefit at low levels and correspondingly little at high levels. This may be what you meant, but misinformed posts on this forum make me allergic to anything that might encourage people to think stats become suddenly useless or "dimishing returns start at value X". "Soft caps" arg arg arg.

Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
THE AWFUL, TERRIBLE OVERLOAD SHOT
*cough* Quick Shot scrappers *cough*

Also, on the Glass Cannon scrapper, an option I go for is 2 points in Shifty -eyed for stealth detection isntead of Dirty Escape's Dirty Kick cd reduction. This is to help catch other stealthers first when circling around nodes, as getting Shoot First in first is so important. The kick cd reduction is very useful though, so I can't criticise the majority who go for Dirty Escape. Possibly just me being stubborn.
Somewhere in the darkness, the Scrapper he broke even
Ilmarinen 60 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.05.2013 , 10:44 AM | #28
Quote:
The Enforcer 4-piece bonus is terrrible. We need to stay above 60% energy to keep our energy regenerating at optimum rate. Sure, we can burn our energy to try and kill someone, but then we're in a Flurry-of-Bolts-shaped hole. And if it doesn't come off we're boned.

The Enforcer 4-piece bonus gives you five extra energy - but because the regen bands go by percentages this means your optimum energy band moves from 60-100 energy to 63-105. The set bonus gives us a massive 2 energy extra in our top regen band. Woo and a big old hoo.
I tested it out in game and, unless the game is misconveying information, my optimal energy band stays at 60-105, not 63-105. The 4 arrows on the Energy bar to the right stay at 4 arrows when I am at 60 energy (as opposed to dropping to 3 bars, as your post suggests If the TOR client is lying to me, that's obviously a separate problem (it doesn't look it though).
Why does that extra 2 energy matter? It means I can SF, Dirty Kick, SC, FR+BB without dropping below 60 energy. If I try that without the extra 5 energy, I drop below 60 energy and have trouble getting out of the hole. Of course, that all assumes that TOR isn't lying to me in the client, with my max energy regen staying at 60+ instead of 63+.
Quote:
The Enforcer PvP 2-piece bonus - an extra second of white damage immunity, useful when getting shot, leapt at or Ravaged - is actually better, in my opinion. But the Enforcer PvE 2-piece (+15% crit on Back Blast) plus the Field Tech PvP 2-piece (3secs = 1 tick extra on Flyby) are probably the optimum choice.
I used the FT 2-piece bonus for a long time and really liked it. It is definitely the second option.
The Enforcer 2-piece, however, is pretty bad unless you are fighting a lot of Snipers and Carnage marauders. I would much rather have the extra energy burst on my upfront combo.
Quote:
There is no magic number. There's no reason 34.0% is magically better than 33.9%, other than a 0.1% chance to crit. The text makes it sound like there's a sharply defined limit where none exists. The general point about not stacking crit at the expense of power is fair (though you shouldn't ignore crit and just go power either of course, but I think you cover this in the general talk about how scrappers can't just stack one thing).
Noted. I am going to rewrite that part to make it clearer.
Quote:
Secondly, there isn't a single diminshing returns curve on crit chance. There is one DR curve on the crit chance you get from Cunning, and another DR curve on the crit chance you get from Crit stat. These two figures, plus base 5% and any buff boosts add up to your total crit chance, the 34% or whatever that people talk about.
Also an important distinction that I don't make. I will add it.
ning, etc. Mouse over the crit chance stat in the Tech tab of your character sheet to see the breakdown.
Quote:
Diminshing returns don't start at 75%. They start at zero Surge (as for all stats with DR in SWTOR). Surge does have a steep DR curve though, with lots of benefit at low levels and correspondingly little at high levels. This may be what you meant, but misinformed posts on this forum make me allergic to anything that might encourage people to think stats become suddenly useless or "dimishing returns start at value X". "Soft caps" arg arg arg.
Yeah, I definitely meant to suggest that the big dropoff starts at around 75%. I was trying to get at the fact that because of the way WH mods/enhancements are designed, we push well beyond those steep returns when configuring gear; my surge is at 530, which is decidedly unoptimal, but just happens because of the mods.
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*cough* Quick Shot scrappers *cough*
Whoop! Fixed.
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Also, on the Glass Cannon scrapper, an option I go for is 2 points in Shifty -eyed for stealth detection isntead of Dirty Escape's Dirty Kick cd reduction. This is to help catch other stealthers first when circling around nodes, as getting Shoot First in first is so important. The kick cd reduction is very useful though, so I can't criticise the majority who go for Dirty Escape. Possibly just me being stubborn.
I really like Shifty-Eyed, but would never take it at the expense of Dirty Escape. That ability is just too good. 30s CD kick is what makes this class, at least in my opinion. To squeeze in Shifty Eyed, I ditch one point in Flee the Scene (DA CD reduction) and one point in Round Two (DPS drop, but I prefer the utility). I am still feeling out that build, because there are times where I would definitely want Round Two at 100% (e.g. against healers). But in other matches, I love the stealth detection.

Thanks again for the thoughtful comments.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

LordZym's Avatar


LordZym
02.05.2013 , 11:04 AM | #29
this clears up all my thoughts on rotations and concludes i have an almost perfect set of stats. Loving life in almost full Ewhero. We are supposedly the worst dps in pvp but man i completely disagree we can smash almost every class single handedly. The only trouble i'm having at the moment is the overload of marauder dps I try to save my defensive cool downs when they pop that irritating massive damage debuff and then slash away. Any suggestions even kiting i find the Dot a pain in butt to outlast.

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
02.05.2013 , 12:09 PM | #30
Replying from tablet. I calculated in 40% of our dot critting. I also assumed the first SF critted as well as the only BB. The first SF has to crit to do the 4000 dmg neccisary to break a bubble. That seemed like a reasonable number of crits, I dont think it fair to assume both SFs crit or that SC crits. Assuming 75% surge that puts our damage that isn't absorbed by bubbles at about 19500 which is perfect for an optimized sorc.

Now for potential issues. I'm not convinced charged burt + TG is enough to break the second bubble but that is because I can't remember charged bursts dmg. If its close we just fill with 1 more flury of bolts. A bigger issue is that we haven't accounted for the near auto crit free self heal when they pop recklessness. That is another 4k life. This means we are about 4k dmg from killing them and we will not get any more melee attacks for the rest of the fight in your first scenario. If they get in trouble there force speed is litterally seconds from being availablrle again, they still have a stun and an insta mez, and after minimal aditional kitting they will have either another bubble (4k) life or another insta self heal ( non crit this time so roughly 2.5k). Oh, they also have slow back to assist with those crucial moments. Thrownin a los tool and 4 k from range without sc is a dream if we get close, say TG crits at the end they can lift and cast a regular heal, 2 seconds of mez before dot breaks it, auto 2 second stun for mez breaking early automatically follows for their spec.

As for scenario 2 dmg advantage becomes 7k with 2 bubbles factored in and 3k with critted self heal. So 3k of their life gone in exchange for DA and full resolve, no thank you. (Though I do love using the flyby combo I'd never thought to add VS to it myself). Obviously really its a bit more than 3k dmg because of crits, but it still comes out worse than the first example which I think I've illustrated isn't enough either.

If we add medpacks and adrenals to either situation they just flat out become a nightmare. We still only get 3-4 melee attacks, and the fight length drags on. Once they get another bubble, speed, or self heal its over. I'm also not meaning to get into an argument with you just seeing if the best scrapper minds can solve the dps sorc puzzle and this is a place they will all drop by. I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. I do however think that you are writting off a sorc as dead just because it is low health and that is a mistake. If we can't gap close, they can take as long as they want to finish us. If the sorc isn't dead after our DA open, they win. getting close doens't cut it, unless it is so close that we can finish them with ranged before bubble or self heal comes back up. With medpacks on both sides I flat out don't see how that is possible unless the sorc messes up or doesn't have a cc breaker.

As I see it the magic amount of damage factoring in bubbles and a single crit insta cast self heal is 28k to kill them if we can do it in less than 16 seconds. 32k in less than 30 seconds or 36k+ if longer than 30 seconds. This is assuming we never let them get off a casted heal and they don't use a medpack or adrenal. I'm not sure ignoring the medpack is reasonable (its another 7k life in all time brackets), but lets solve the easier fight before we add that. If we can't do the appropriate amount of damage in one of those time brackets, I think we lose. And the way I see it, the kings of kitting have enough ways to get and stay out of our range to win this fight. Thoughts?