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The Scrapper's Handbook: A PvP Guide

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
The Scrapper's Handbook: A PvP Guide

AngelofCain's Avatar


AngelofCain
05.18.2013 , 10:21 AM | #181
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
Bolstered stats I'm running around with are:

1252 tech dmg
24% crit
75.6% surge

Highest damage I've seen on my attacks (all lvl 55, none exploiting through any means):

Shoot First: 8400
Backblast: 7200 (maybe higher, hasn't jumped out at me though)
Sab Charge: 7200

I know I've gotten some pretty nice Sucker Punch crits, haven't kept track of those numbers though.

I'm running with a low alacrity rating to keep burst damage high for pvp. Might try to incorporate some alacrity into the build without losing out on other vital stats.
Listen to Rand and miyke. They are some of the best scrappers I've faced. Tootles everybody.
Hallow, ägronä, <Status unknown> -(Concealment Operative)
Elite Warlord (since1.2) // Warzone Annihilator

JaysoTohl's Avatar


JaysoTohl
05.19.2013 , 09:29 AM | #182
First off I wanted to say thanks to Miyke for this awesome guide, nothing else like it out there. Hope they keep this stickied FOREVER lol; and I apologize up front for this enormous post. =P

Now my only complaint is that there isn't much info here for lowbie scrappers, I was lvl 20 when I first read this guide a few days ago and therefore didn't hav the vast majority of abilities talked about here (SF, TB, DA, sneak, etc). I'm lvl 26 now and hav improved MASSIVELY from reading this guide, but I'm still at a loss about my gear, "rotation", etc while leveling.

NOTE: I'm not a super serious player, primarily I play SWTOR for fun, so I don't really care about min/maxing or working for massive numbers in wzs, I just want to be geared well enough to be useful. I don't really think, no offense to anyone, that doing 900k smg in a wz has anything to do with being good at them. You can do boatloads of dmg and still lose. I don't even do 100k in most lowbie wzs but I'm voted MVP a lot because I focus on objectives rather than numbers. Example being a hyper gate match I played yesterday. I had lowest kills and and dmg, but got 5 votes cuz I beat off (after calling inc, that is) at least 1 ninja-ing attempt b4 each discharge. A couple times I did so 2v1, and I definitely think ( my lousy numbers be darned lol) that we would've lost that match had I not been on defense with the knowledge this guide gave me.
The Tohl Legacy
Jayso - Sith Marauder
Sarro - Sith Juggernaut | Nolus - Sith Sorcerer
Server - Jung Ma

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
05.19.2013 , 12:44 PM | #183
You're not going to find a whole lot of useful information on the class prior to where the scrapper spec actually begins, at level 36. Anything prior to that is just using 2 or 3 attacks when available. Level 55 pvp scrapping is not the same experience you think you're getting in your 20s.

Sorry to say, but a scrapper who pulls 900k is good, that's all single target damage. I'm not personally a huge fan of the ones who play an entire match in stealth, only to come out and kill someone when they are at half health and only require 2-3 hits. That's me, nothing personal.

That said, I pull those kind of numbers and play purely objectives in any match I'm in. Scrappers can still be amazing, even if they can't taunt or help heal effectively as a byproduct.
Covert-sin
Covert-ops

JaysoTohl's Avatar


JaysoTohl
05.19.2013 , 01:35 PM | #184
I'm not saying that a player who puts up big numbers isn't good, just that that doesn't necessarily indicate that he/she has played objectives and helped his team win. As I said, you can put up record numbers and still lose, I see noobs do that all the time lol.

Frankly what I'm saying is that I don't hav the skill to be on the front lines putting up big numbers without dying a boatload of times and/or being useless to the team. I agree that staying stealthed the whole time usually makes u useless, but u can also use it right. I stay in stealth a lot of the time playing very conservatively and frequently find myself able to ambush that ball carrier who thinks he's gotten away from my team, or take out that healer who hides to patch himself up for a second, or cap a node who's defender has gotten lazy cuz he's not seeing any action. I find myself more useful that way, because, again, I just don't have the skill for frontline combat on this class yet. My Immortal Jugg, sure, but not a Scrapper lol

*Edit*: Didn't mean to sound like I was trying to start a debate. Anyway, I'm still at a loss for lowbie Scrapper PvP info. I realize a lot of our key abilities and talents don't come til later, but I don't think that should mean I'm on my own til I lvl more. No offense intended, just sayin lol
The Tohl Legacy
Jayso - Sith Marauder
Sarro - Sith Juggernaut | Nolus - Sith Sorcerer
Server - Jung Ma

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
05.19.2013 , 09:56 PM | #185
Quote: Originally Posted by JaysoTohl View Post
...Frankly what I'm saying is that I don't hav the skill to be on the front lines putting up big numbers without dying a boatload of times and/or being useless to the team...
HAHA! Get used to that feeling my friend, it lasts until 55 and stay with you.

Nah, you're fine. Just was saying that pulling high numbers doesn't mean that said person is not playing obejctives/objectively.

Lots of people play differently, the most common playstyle I see being the "stay in stealth until the person I see is low on hp and I'll gank them" guy. Unfortunately for me, personally, it is some concealment op who stalks me all over the map and gets his epeen stroked by killing me in 2 or 3 hits w/o me having a chance to react. No sense in dumping your cc breaker when you'll have 3k hp to defend yourself.

I spend nearly the entire game outside of stealth fighting: I'm out focusing the healer, then I will either kill and restealth or be focused by their dps/tank and have to LoS to heal or die. Obviously I'm still in combat, so I heal and choose to reconvene my assault instead of "waiting it out" to restealth and stalk around.

The scrapper/conceal class is very easy to play as a "finish someone off" player: You get a 1.5 sec knockdown that usually crits over 7k, followed by Dirty Kick/Debilitate with Sab/Explosive Charge and whatever you choose next, Backblast or Blaster Whip. Those are strictly lvl 55 numbers, but lets say for argument's sake that I am that guy and my current target has 50% hp remaining. Most ppl are 30k hp with full partisan, so my opponent is going to have 15k hp and the fight is even more in my favor with my Shoot First knockdown. So:

Shoot First 7k crit > Blaster Whip 3.5-4k crit > Dirty Kick > Sab Charge 7k crit simultaneously with Babkblast or Sucker Punch = Well over 15k damage before the opponent had time to react.

The above is a small example of what I see all the time. Sad to say I get stalked by ppl who do that and don't have the ability/desire to retaliate. I understand the inexperience standpoint, so you are fighting how you know to fight at this point for your own survival. But I see guys who have been fighting that way for months as they don't know how to fight out of stealth. As soon as their opponent is unstunned and not dead, they don't have the slightest clue what to do.

My advice: Until you get Shoot First at 36, use Backblast and Sab Charge as much as you can. Find your way around your opponent to get in position for your moves if you are out of stealth and unable to get the jump on them. I see ppl every day who show through "body" language how they are going to react to you trying to get behind them. If they shimmy one way, you move the other. Go in seemingly slow, then swoop around lightning fast. Tendon Shot > move in to the rooted target to get behind them. Once you get 36, get 2/2 in KO to get the knockdown. 45 I guess it is now for Flechette Round, that's your next milestone. The class is very naked without those abilities, as a scrapper that is.

For your own longevity (as a scrapper), my real advice is: Learn to play the class out of stealth, and learn to be comfortable with it. We have no defenses, basically. We can LoS and heal ourselves, use that wisely. If you're planning on not being the guy who get to 55, gets his face kicked in the dirt and then is a medic from then on out, you'll have to accept that you're going to die... a lot. The better you are out of stealth, the more of an asset you can be to your team (IMO) and the better you can excel at a class that has an uphill climb.

For now, it's cool to be that guy who attacks the ball handler when he's at his most vulnerable and whatnot. You're still supposed to be that guy in how I posted above. You're more of an asset beyond that by trying to focus/cc/kill healer(s), cc/kill dps that is focusing YOUR own healer (who should be keeping you alive, to a degree), cc-ing/capping nodes, and even now running the huttball if no better circumstances are available for a knight/shadow to run it.

Personally, I try to be different than what all the rest do, I try to be as unique as I can even though we all share the same moves. Aim to excel.

JaysoTohl's Avatar


JaysoTohl
05.19.2013 , 10:26 PM | #186
Now that's what I need to hear lol. Awesome advice. I will definitely try to work on my playstyle. I've done a little more aggressive fighting even since my last post, spending less time in stealth and more time actually playing, but I'm definitely gonna keep working. Had an awesome Civil War match tonight: I was unbeatable, MVP, and pretty much carried the team; but only because I spent most of my time out of stealth bashing imp faces in xD, and I must say, I see your point.

As I said before, my objective in learning this class is still primarily to get better at playing objectives, and the numbers can go screw themselves for all I care (joking, no offense intended) most important thing to me is a win for our team no matter what my stats look like. Your help with definitely allow me to support my team better in wzs, so thank you. ANY other advice you have for me is welcome, still really new to the class and I need all the help I can get.


Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
Nah, you're fine. Just was saying that pulling high numbers doesn't mean that said person is not playing obejctives/objectively.
So basically we could agree that pulling high numbers has no bearing on whether or not a person plays wzs objectively?
The Tohl Legacy
Jayso - Sith Marauder
Sarro - Sith Juggernaut | Nolus - Sith Sorcerer
Server - Jung Ma

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
05.24.2013 , 08:16 AM | #187
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
Agreed, but I believe the consensus is that crit has DR over 25% so even puttin talent points into it regardless isn't necessarily better. I respec a lot, so sometimes I run with it sometimes not. Doesn't make a world of difference in any respect. I also ran with 29-30% crit in 1.7 whereas a lot of "expert" scrappers ha 35%+. I see bigger results running with more power for more even output. Crit nerf hurt us, yes, but we still have 16% increased chance to SF and BB which is all you really need to think about.
It's DR that makes the talent +3% crit chance good though - because that 3% doesn't count against Crit's diminshing returns.

I started short, but then went on a bit of a ramble to try and explain, please bear with me and I might manage to make it clearer.
______________

The total crit chance people quote of 25% (or whatever) is broken up into

5% base
5% smuggler buff (assuming you have it)
1% companion buff (assuming you have it)
3% from the No Holds Barred talent (if you take it)

All of which ignores diminishing returns, it doesn't count towards it. That's why you want as much as you can get.

The rest of your headline crit chance is then
main stat (has a DR curve, max 20% at infinity)
Crit (has a separate DR curve, max 30% at infinity)

So you can get a lot, or a little, of crit chance from main stat and it doesn't affect how much crit chance an extra point of Crit gives you.

The thing is, even though its theoretical max is 30% to main stat's 20%, the boost to crit chance from every point you get is so small it's rubbish.

If you're a scrapper you'll take as much main stat as you can get anyway, because it's almost as good for bonus damage as Power and then gives crit chance too. At 2500 main stat you'll get +6.89% crit chance.

So with the "free" 14% crit chance, plus 2500 main stat, you'd be just under 21% crit chance (14 + 6.89 = 20.89) without any Crit at all. Any lower and you're doing something wrong, this is the minimum you should be working from. might be a bit different depending on your main stat level.

The question is whether, given that getting a crit is so vital to us, the extra chance to get a crit from adding Crit is better than the extra base damage from Power.

Going from zero to 100 Crit, you earn +1.99% crit chance.
From 100 to 200 Crit you earn +1.85% crit chance (hey, it's diminshing returns!)

100 power gives 23 bonus damage. For me, this equates to around 1.6% more damage overall.

So, the trade off between 100 Power and the first 100 Crit is:
Crit: c.2.0% more chance to crit
Power: a 1.6% flat damage increase

If you pick crit and also have 75% crit bonus, that'll be worth on average (0.75 x 2) = 1.5%. This is less than 1.6%, and while you crit a bit more often, those crits will be 1.6% smaller. Going from 100 to 200 Crit would give (0.75 x 1.85) = 1.39% overall damage increase. Also, this is very rough: for example it ignores that properly talented BB and SF actually give c.105% crit bonus damage not 75%.

At some point though, you'll have stacked so much power that any extra isn't giving enough extra % increase to beat Crit.
Also, if you NEED to crit to win a fight - then maybe you should take some Crit ( a low number before the worst of the diminishing returns kicks in, maybe 100 to 200?), even if it means your hits are a little smaller.

Rambling over,.

TL;DR:
1) You must take No Holds Barred talent.
2) Power gives better overall damage than Crit until you're pretty much max geared-out.
3) But critting is so important to scrappers that a low level of Crit (c.100-200) is probably going to be better than none.

This is only with reference to Scrappers/Conc Ops, it'll be diferent for other classes and even specs of our class.
Hasa'diga Eewokai
Ilmarinen 60 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

agsyjuco's Avatar


agsyjuco
05.28.2013 , 10:14 PM | #188
I always enjoy reading your input, Wainamoinen. I remember us having the crit vs power discussion on PTS.

Quick question...

Quote:
At some point though, you'll have stacked so much power that any extra isn't giving enough extra % increase to beat Crit.
At around what point would that be? I've taken bonus tech damage all the way up to 1250 and wonder if the last 100 points of power give a % increase so small that crit rating would actually win.
Kylen
Infamous
Begeren Colony
A Day in the Life of a DPS Scoundrel

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
05.31.2013 , 05:54 AM | #189
Quote: Originally Posted by agsyjuco View Post
At around what point would that be? I've taken bonus tech damage all the way up to 1250 and wonder if the last 100 points of power give a % increase so small that crit rating would actually win.
Cheers.

I'm up to 1307 tech bonus damage, buffed in warzones, and Power still beats Crit for sustained damage.

I have taken some (144) Crit though, mainly because a) I haven't min/maxed the gear; b) I reckon that critting a bit more often helps. Note "reckon": it's unquantifiable that it's better, I would do more overall damage with the Power.

Another nugget though: use your M7-R3 Matrix Cube relic. It has a boatload of Cunning, and gets bolstered up in warzones because it hasn't any expertise.

I had two conq relics, 8 other conq pieces and 4 partisan for 2018 expertise.

I swapped the damage proc relic (since the last patch) for the Matrix Cube, gained 80 Cunning and 8 Crit for 20 Power and 29 Endurance, and still had 2017 expertise in warzones - and because the experitse cap is under 2018 (about 2013 though haven't tested in WZs) I was still at 60% / 37.5% pvp bonus.

Dust off your Matrix Cubes, jam an advanced 28 Skill Augment in there and off you go. Unless you're in Open World, in which case you'll want the second conqueror relic.
Hasa'diga Eewokai
Ilmarinen 60 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
05.31.2013 , 07:41 AM | #190
Agreed. Seems more balanced overall now and we still hit very hard with negligible difference due to this recent relic change. We were hitting much lower than other classes so were not really as effected, as per my own experience.