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Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
02.03.2013 , 03:12 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Traya, turning her attention to Xizor, supplies his forces with false information, eventually leading them to believe that both Kun and Traya have perished in mutual destruction. Finding Yavin IV and Malachor V abandoned, Xizor eventually accepts this is the case and returns to Coruscant to celebrate. Traya however has dispatched Darth Sion and a group of Sith assassins in a shuttle to Coruscant. The ship goes undetected in the mass thoroughfare of the planet and lands in the Palace District, close to Xizor’s Palace. Sion has his assassins infiltrate the palace and disable any starships inside, cutting off any chance of escape. They then disable the Palace’s defences and Sion storms the Palace. Xizor attempts to make a hasty escape, sending Guri to confront Sion and buy him time. But Sion makes short work of Guri and pursues his quarry, quickly catching up with Xizor in his private hangar. In desperation Xizor fires a few harmless bolts and Sion bats them aside with his lightsaber and then proceeds to decapitate the Prince. Sion returns to Traya and informs her of his success.
I'm sorry, when was this debated?

It's completely unfair to bring up a new argument and not allow anyone to counter it because you think it would happen. Your scenario makes sense up until this point. This part of the scenario had never been debated or even addressed, so it's wrong to assume it would happen this way. If you plan on having one get eliminated, at some point you should have told us that so we could focus on a scenario between the two survivors.

I'm tempted to call out personal bias here, seeing as you basically have Xizor and Kun getting destroyed through your entire scenario, then pull a "AH HA! Here's how Traya WILL kill Xizor, no doubt!" argument.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.03.2013 , 03:22 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I'm sorry, when was this debated?

It's completely unfair to bring up a new argument and not allow anyone to counter it because you think it would happen. Your scenario makes sense up until this point. This part of the scenario had never been debated or even addressed, so it's wrong to assume it would happen this way. If you plan on having one get eliminated, at some point you should have told us that so we could focus on a scenario between the two survivors.

I'm tempted to call out personal bias here, seeing as you basically have Xizor and Kun getting destroyed through your entire scenario, then pull a "AH HA! Here's how Traya WILL kill Xizor, no doubt!" argument.
Well it cant really be biased since he just comes up with a scenario based on the people that participate in his debate's points and the number of people that support one side. If the people had brought up more points in Exar Kun's favor or more people favored Exar Kun then Beni would just write a scenario where Kun won, so there really is no bias on his part.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.03.2013 , 03:23 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Of course back then it would be, but way back when the ships weren't decked out with tons of firepower and having all the bells and whistles. I mean the Derriphan has autoblasters...no, not turbolasers...AUTOBLASTERS which are ancient in design, and not too accurate either.
Yeah. The Derriphan is not that great. It's not even good. It's just plain bad. Thinking back on it, I should have brought this up in the Revan vs. Grievous vs. G0-T0 thread, but I forgot about it . Because, really, the Derriphan is not good. Oh well, just bring it up here, I guess.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
02.03.2013 , 04:18 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Yeah. The Derriphan is not that great. It's not even good. It's just plain bad. Thinking back on it, I should have brought this up in the Revan vs. Grievous vs. G0-T0 thread, but I forgot about it . Because, really, the Derriphan is not good. Oh well, just bring it up here, I guess.
Difference is that G0-T0 took out the survivor of the Revan vs. Grievous almost immediately after one of them killed the other. Ben's Traya scenario involves a much larger window of time for Xizor to react, but G0-T0 went for eliminating two enemies essentially at the same time.

In this Revan vs. Xizor, things become interesting... Revan has the raw military might, and Xizor has a base of operations that grounded on a planet... Both sides have assassins, though Xizor would have the bounty hunters for the most part.

The Starfighters at Xizor's disposal had shields, Sith Fighters generally had no shields, so from a starfighter standpoint Xizor has the edge.

The capital ships Xizor could in theory have or obtain would probably have above standard military tech as well, as long as Xizor can evade Revan's assassins, and keep from confronting Revan in a one on one fight, this may favor Xizor.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.03.2013 , 04:35 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
This. I mean, I'm happy for Traya, but I don't know. Beni, would you mind showing the tally points on this one? It just strike me as odd( I supported Traya though).
Really? Curious, what outcome did you expect? (A question to everyone.) I didn't do a tally for this one, and only managed to do half a tally for the last one. Simply because the tri-battle format meant that combatants didn't fight each other on the same terms head to head. It was all about scenarios, which can't really be counted. If I had done a tally it likely would have given an 'incorrect' outcome.
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I'm sorry, when was this debated?

It's completely unfair to bring up a new argument and not allow anyone to counter it because you think it would happen. Your scenario makes sense up until this point. This part of the scenario had never been debated or even addressed, so it's wrong to assume it would happen this way. If you plan on having one get eliminated, at some point you should have told us that so we could focus on a scenario between the two survivors.

I'm tempted to call out personal bias here, seeing as you basically have Xizor and Kun getting destroyed through your entire scenario, then pull a "AH HA! Here's how Traya WILL kill Xizor, no doubt!" argument.
It wasn't, which is the point. Nobody came up with any arguments for Xizor defeating Traya, despite me raising the point on several occassions. Admittedly I didn't mention this point during the debate (although I did ask what would happen if if Traya beat Kun and Traya supplied Xizor with false information about her death), but I only really had to 'invent it' at the end because nobody put forward arguments for Traya's defeat. And I don't decide who gets eliminated until the very end, when I call the winner. And like Darkondo said, the scenarios are just based on the arguments everyone made. Its basically an expression of what would be a tally, if I had managed to make a tally instead, the result would be the same. This is just a 'fun' scenario to put it into perspective.

P.S. Just a query here Aurbere, but what evidence suggests that the Derriphans made up a substantial portion of Revan's fleet? They are obviously not that good so I don't see why Revan would use many of them. And we only see Interdictors in KOTOR - which would suggest these vessels are rare.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
02.03.2013 , 04:41 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Really? Curious, what outcome did you expect? (A question to everyone.) I didn't do a tally for this one, and only managed to do half a tally for the last one. Simply because the tri-battle format meant that combatants didn't fight each other on the same terms head to head. It was all about scenarios, which can't really be counted. If I had done a tally it likely would have given an 'incorrect' outcome.
Well, we had scenarios in which Traya won, we had scenarios in which Kun won and we had scenarios in which Xizor won. Some scenarios were more likely, others were less likely. So you could give points to scenarios based on how likely they are.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.03.2013 , 04:44 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Well, we had scenarios in which Traya won, we had scenarios in which Kun won and we had scenarios in which Xizor won. Some scenarios were more likely, others were less likely. So you could give points to scenarios based on how likely they are.
True, I might go back and do that to satifisy some of our disgruntled competitors . But I guess I basically did that in my head.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
02.03.2013 , 04:44 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
It wasn't, which is the point. Nobody came up with any arguments for Xizor defeating Traya, despite me raising the point on several occassions. Admittedly I didn't mention this point during the debate (although I did ask what would happen if if Traya beat Kun and Traya supplied Xizor with false information about her death), but I only really had to 'invent it' at the end because nobody put forward arguments for Traya's defeat.
My point is that no one made an argument about how Traya would beat Xizor either. That wasn't an argument made by someone else, it was an argument made by you. By that same logic, Xizor auto-wins against Traya, because no one, including you, made any scenarios in which Traya killed Xizor (until they very end when it could not be refuted).

I've never been -really- unhappy with an outcome before, but I feel like your senario was an excuse for you to carry Traya into the finals. A Traya vs. Xizor battle after Kun was dead could have ended MANY other ways than what you decided was correct.

But oh well.

I'm looking forward to the G0-T0 vs. Traya battle. What's gonna happen with the allies, seeing as Hanharr and The Exile are both kinda cross-teamed?
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.03.2013 , 04:53 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

P.S. Just a query here Aurbere, but what evidence suggests that the Derriphans made up a substantial portion of Revan's fleet? They are obviously not that good so I don't see why Revan would use many of them. And we only see Interdictors in KOTOR - which would suggest these vessels are rare.
Quote:
Following Kun's defeat, the Sith Empire under Lords Darth Revan and Darth Malak discovered the design's blueprints and produced more of them, using the massive Star Forge. They were effective against the Republic's frigates, but suffered massive casualties due to having no shields.[2]
-Wookieepedia

Quote:
Navy
■Interdictor-class Cruisers such as the Leviathan were among the finest Republic vessels of the time period.
■Centurion-class battlecruisers exemplified by the Ravager.
■Derriphan-class battleships
■Sith interceptors were a hybrid of Republic and Rakatan technologies mass produced by the Star Forge.
■KT-400 military droid carriers
■Herald-class shuttles
-Wookieepedia

That's what I have for now. The Derriphans were one of the Star Forge's main naval products along with the Sith interceptors. The majority of the remaining naval forces came from stolen Republic vessels like the Interdictor and the Centurion.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.03.2013 , 04:57 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
My point is that no one made an argument about how Traya would beat Xizor either. That wasn't an argument made by someone else, it was an argument made by you. By that same logic, Xizor auto-wins against Traya, because no one, including you, made any scenarios in which Traya killed Xizor (until they very end when it could not be refuted).

I've never been -really- unhappy with an outcome before, but I feel like your senario was an excuse for you to carry Traya into the finals. A Traya vs. Xizor battle after Kun was dead could have ended MANY other ways than what you decided was correct.

But oh well.

I'm looking forward to the G0-T0 vs. Traya battle. What's gonna happen with the allies, seeing as Hanharr and The Exile are both kinda cross-teamed?
I understand, and I think I made a mistake in calling it that soon. But it was honestly just a mistake, I had already asked on multiple occasions what would happen between Traya vs Xizor and no arguments where forthcoming. I should have put it to the table again but I guess I was eager to wrap up the lengthy debate and didn't think to. Although I did consider what would happen personally, and couldn't think of any ways for Xizor to kill Traya who could easily just disappear.

And for the finals (and this round) - no allies. However I think I'll allow the Mass Shadow Generator, to make it fair for G0-T0.