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Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.18.2013 , 03:35 PM | #181
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Not to mention, Revan is used to fighting a full scale war not a shadow war, so really its a disadvantage for him and an advantage for Xizor.
Well not quite, during the Jedi Civil War Revan flooded the Republic with assassins and spies designed to destabalise its infrastructure. He also waged a shadow war against the Jedi, capturing and killing many and turning others to the dark side.

If anything its Xizor who does not know how to wage a shadow war, as far as I'm aware the only time Xizor actually 'waged war' with anyone was Battle over Coruscant, and he lost.

Nonetheless Xizor is still skilled in operating in the shadows and disappearing etc. he also has hundreds of hideouts, bases, strongholds and safe houses scattered across the galaxy. Revan can feasibly go around blowing them up, but he has to play clever if he want's to corner Xizor.

However Darksaber makes a very good point, if Xizor keeps running and his bases keep getting destroyed - his underlings may lose faith in him and start to see the benefits of switching sides... because lets face it the Black Sun didn't really operate with an iron fist, it was a cut throat world of backstabbing and power grabbing.

EDIT: The thing his Aurbere, this situation is different. Revan isn't a 'war mongerer' like Malak. His cold and cunning, and more than capable of adapting to shadow tactics, after all he did have a legion of shadow assassins.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.18.2013 , 03:36 PM | #182
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Not to mention, Revan is used to fighting a full scale war not a shadow war, so really its a disadvantage for him and an advantage for Xizor.
That's something that I have noticed in these past battles. Shadow types () have an advantage over the 'war-monger' types because they don't play that game. They make the 'war-monger' play the shadow game, a game they can't play well. And if the 'war-monger' doesn't conform, they lose because they make it too easy for the shadow types to play to their strengths.
Added Chapter 31 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
02.18.2013 , 03:40 PM | #183
Quote: Originally Posted by Darksaberexile View Post
I can't contribute a lot to this debate since I don't know a lot about the Black Sun. But, since everyone likes scenarios with Revan being assassinated, I'd just like to point out that Revan's precognitive abilities work just fine, so he can since impending danger. (It's not necessary to go "Hey, there's droids on the ship that shouldn't be!" to get a feeling through the Force that there was imminent danger.)

So, at least in my opinion, it seems reasonable to me to assume that Revan would have some sense that a trap was imminent, or if an assassination attempt was underway. He wouldn't have lived long as a dark lord of the Sith otherwise. (And in case Malak's betrayal is brought up as a counterpoint, having played Kotor it seemed to be implied that it was a spur of the moment decision by Malak to betray Revan, and it was done while Revan was preoccupied by the Jedi. So assassination attempts during battle might be easier, but I wouldn't assume Revan will just walk his fleet into a trap for Xizor's convenience before that.)

(if any of this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to edit it later, posting at 1:30 AM after doing a bunch of homework, so I cannot guarantee it's 100% coherent)
I have to agree with you on this.

I'm going to also point out to people that a space battle with capital ships duking it out is likely to favor Revan, not Xizor. Revan knows how to command a fleet, a squadron of starfighters, etc. Xizor in all honesty does not know how to do this, Xizor also doesn't have superior military geniuses at his disposal...

If I were someone like Revan, I wouldn't choose the biggest ship in my fleet to be my flagship (simply because everyone would assume it is the flagship), so in theory the IG-86 droids would be attacking the wrong ship. Furthermore even if Revan did use that ship, there were several force powers from that era that we didn't see by the clone wars era.

Stun Droid, Disable Droid, Destroy droid

The idea of the IG-86 droids getting very far with a couple of force wielders present that are skilled in one of those three powers (especially destroy droid), is rather unlikely. It's like having a bunch of people packing portable ion canons, those droids are not getting very far.

Revan would also be sending troops onto ships in Xizor's fleet as well, if Xizor is on one of his ships, then he's going to be contending with assassins boarding his ship, just like Revan would.

The key thing people need to consider is the ships in Revans fleet as someone pointed out, were ridiculously over-armored due to the era's technology limitations. If we equalize the technology, there is still no reason to get rid of the armor, so it could stand to reason that boarding actions might actually be less effective when it comes to trying to storm Revan's ships.

While Xizor would send assassins after Revan, chances are Revan would be dispatching Sith Trained assassins to hunt down Xizor. I think force wielding assassins whom are also fanatics are far more dangerous than a bunch of hired killers that are doing it for the money. A fanatic doesn't care whether they live or die while taking out their target; someone whom is only in it for the money on the other hand will not do anything that would simply get them killed in the process because they won't get paid.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.18.2013 , 03:41 PM | #184
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well not quite, during the Jedi Civil War Revan flooded the Republic with assassins and spies designed to destabalise its infrastructure. He also waged a shadow war against the Jedi, capturing and killing many and turning others to the dark side.

If anything its Xizor who does not know how to wage a shadow war, as far as I'm aware the only time Xizor actually 'waged war' with anyone was Battle over Coruscant, and he lost.

Nonetheless Xizor is still skilled in operating in the shadows and disappearing etc. he also has hundreds of hideouts, bases, strongholds and safe houses scattered across the galaxy. Revan can feasibly go around blowing them up, but he has to play clever if he want's to corner Xizor.

However Darksaber makes a very good point, if Xizor keeps running and his bases keep getting destroyed - his underlings may lose faith in him and start to see the benefits of switching sides... because lets face it the Black Sun didn't really operate with an iron fist, it was a cut throat world of backstabbing and power grabbing.

EDIT: The thing his Aurbere, this situation is different. Revan isn't a 'war mongerer' like Malak. His cold and cunning, and more than capable of adapting to shadow tactics, after all he did have a legion of shadow assassins.
Right but he didn't engage in a full shadow war, it was mostly just a full scale war. Sure he sent assassins and the like, but he still was doing actual battles. Though Xizor knows how to operate in a shadow war, I mean he had a plan all laid out to kill Luke and would have succeeded if it weren't for Vader coming in at the moment.

But anyway, stopping here.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.18.2013 , 03:46 PM | #185
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well not quite, during the Jedi Civil War Revan flooded the Republic with assassins and spies designed to destabalise its infrastructure. He also waged a shadow war against the Jedi, capturing and killing many and turning others to the dark side.

If anything its Xizor who does not know how to wage a shadow war, as far as I'm aware the only time Xizor actually 'waged war' with anyone was Battle over Coruscant, and he lost.


The thing about that is the Black Sun isn't a galactic government. It hides in the shadows. The Republic isn't like the Black Sun.

Quote:
Nonetheless Xizor is still skilled in operating in the shadows and disappearing etc. he also has hundreds of hideouts, bases, strongholds and safe houses scattered across the galaxy. Revan can feasibly go around blowing them up, but he has to play clever if he want's to corner Xizor.

However Darksaber makes a very good point, if Xizor keeps running and his bases keep getting destroyed - his underlings may lose faith in him and start to see the benefits of switching sides... because lets face it the Black Sun didn't really operate with an iron fist, it was a cut throat world of backstabbing and power grabbing.

EDIT: The thing his Aurbere, this situation is different. Revan isn't a 'war mongerer' like Malak. His cold and cunning, and more than capable of adapting to shadow tactics, after all he did have a legion of shadow assassins.
These bases aren't easy to find. If they were, the Republic would have wiped them out long before Xizor came along. They hide in the shadows. They aren't out in the open.

Isn't betraying the Black Sun basically a death sentence?

By 'war-monger' I don't mean "MOAR WAR! NOW!!!!!!" I mean someone built for waging full scale wars. While Revan does have a shadow tactic, it was built to go after a visible enemy. The Black Sun is invisible (mostly).

Personally, I think the best strategy for Revan is to send the assassins out right away. Don't go out and attack the Black Sun directly, just send assassins after Xizor. This may not work if Xizor decides to pick up and leave Coruscant. But even if he doesn't, how likely is it for an assassination attempt to work? (Serious question for those that know the Black Sun better than I do)

Anyway, I'm gonna stop here.
Added Chapter 31 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.18.2013 , 03:51 PM | #186
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The thing about that is the Black Sun isn't a galactic government. It hides in the shadows. The Republic isn't like the Black Sun.



These bases aren't easy to find. If they were, the Republic would have wiped them out long before Xizor came along. They hide in the shadows. They aren't out in the open.

Isn't betraying the Black Sun basically a death sentence?

By 'war-monger' I don't mean "MOAR WAR! NOW!!!!!!" I mean someone built for waging full scale wars. While Revan does have a shadow tactic, it was built to go after a visible enemy. The Black Sun is invisible (mostly).

Personally, I think the best strategy for Revan is to send the assassins out right away. Don't go out and attack the Black Sun directly, just send assassins after Xizor. This may not work if Xizor decides to pick up and leave Coruscant. But even if he doesn't, how likely is it for an assassination attempt to work? (Serious question for those that know the Black Sun better than I do)

Anyway, I'm gonna stop here.
Depends, Xizor survived an assassination attempt before and killed the assassin.

Quote:
Xizor walks in a luxury hall while a man, Hoff, makes an assassination attempt against him; Xizor kills him single-handedly. The event is watched by Palpatine and Vader, who suspects that Palpatine orchestrated the attempt, only to test Xizor.
Noting that Hoff was also skilled in H2H combat.

So it isn't like Xizor can't handle himself, however it all really depends on how the assassination is planned out though I don't see Xizor not being well prepared due to the prior event.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
02.18.2013 , 03:53 PM | #187
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Right but he didn't engage in a full shadow war, it was mostly just a full scale war. Sure he sent assassins and the like, but he still was doing actual battles. Though Xizor knows how to operate in a shadow war, I mean he had a plan all laid out to kill Luke and would have succeeded if it weren't for Vader coming in at the moment.

But anyway, stopping here.
After losing his palace and his fleet suffering heavy losses at the hands of two freighters and 12 X-Wings...

I don't think that bodes well against someone that would have an entire fleet at his disposal.

MyDarkSunshine's Avatar


MyDarkSunshine
02.18.2013 , 03:54 PM | #188
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
But even if he doesn't, how likely is it for an assassination attempt to work? (Serious question for those that know the Black Sun better than I do)
If I'm not mistaken Darth Maul successfully infiltrated a Black Sun base more than once, and had important (maybe even leading) members assassinated more than once. Other Force sensitive individuals might be capable of the same.

I think people are also underestimating the morale issues (ha, as if they'd have "moral issues") the Black Sun will face, that were brought up earlier but left without efficient counter argument. In fact a lot of points in Revan's favour were left without detailed responses from Xizor sympathizers. This could be because such things were countered early in the thread, however, as haven't read it's entirety.
"Who I am is not important- my message is." Revan

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.18.2013 , 03:58 PM | #189
Quote: Originally Posted by MyDarkSunshine View Post
If I'm not mistaken Darth Maul successfully infiltrated a Black Sun base more than once, and had important (maybe even leading) members assassinated more than once. Other Force sensitive individuals might be capable of the same.

I think people are also underestimating the moral issues the Black Sun will face, that were brought up earlier but left without efficient counter argument. In fact a lot of points in Revan's favour were left without detailed responses from Xizor sympathizers. This could be because such things were countered early in the thread, however, as haven't read it's entirety.
Theres a distinct difference here though with Maul, Maul was crafted into being a weapon, pure and simple an attack dog if you will. Not sure the Dark Jedi under Revan's command, would be trained to that extent otherwise why wouldn't they try to kill Revan themselves?...This isn't to say that they wouldn't do damage just not to the extent of Maul's doing.

Ok now I am really done here, and will wait for the results.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
02.18.2013 , 04:14 PM | #190
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Theres a distinct difference here though with Maul, Maul was crafted into being a weapon, pure and simple an attack dog if you will. Not sure the Dark Jedi under Revan's command, would be trained to that extent otherwise why wouldn't they try to kill Revan themselves?...This isn't to say that they wouldn't do damage just not to the extent of Maul's doing.

Ok now I am really done here, and will wait for the results.
The assassin that tried to kill Xizor was an emotionally distraught individual, not a Sith-trained Force Sensitive...