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Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.18.2013 , 12:13 PM | #171
Hmm, perhaps sabotage could work. But then again, unless Xizor does serious damage to Revan's fleets - he's not going to be needing reinforcements. And those shipyards can be repaired. As for Kuat, the cover would be blown when Kuat doesn't end of producing fleets for Revan and instead starts shipping out Star Destroyers to Xizor. Then its just a case of giving Xizor a taste of his own medicine and destroying them from the inside. Or do what the Sith Empire did in the Battle of Sluis Van - send in bombers and fighters to break the ring apart. No matter how well defended Kuat is, I doubt it could withstand a full invasion from Revan's Empire, an empire that has experience attacking and capturing shipyards. Or did what the Master did () capture the Kuat and Kuats and force him out of his deal with Xizor.

Or finally, blockade the planet, or the trade route leading out of it, and prevent any ships getting to Xizor.

And you make a good point about the Black Market, it would be difficult if not impossible to rumble them all. But he could burn down the major ones, and remember if he takes out the factories, the market will have nothing to sell. Even if Xizor plunders the lot, his tech will start to dry up pretty quick as Revan tears down the rest of his powerbase. Not to say he will, after all Xizor can't see the future, he won't expect an attack on factories he doesn't even own, he won't start plundering the black market until Revan attacks the factories, and by then it will be too late.

Oh and about smugglers and bounty hunters, you misread. What I said is smugglers and bounty hunters don't tend to use black markets that much, its mainly the local populace and the crime syndicates. But the crime syndicates don't exist in the Kaggath so that doesn't matter.

How does Revan find Vigos? Well every time Revan invades a Black Sun base, he's going to get more and more intel on their whereabouts and the locations of other bases, as well as the location of Xizor.

Darksaberexile's Avatar


Darksaberexile
02.18.2013 , 12:15 PM | #172
In response to an earlier argument that Xizor could use send people disguised as engineers to steal ships from Revan, it would be very difficult for this to succeed. First, it would take time to get the people in place, as arousing suspicion could end in early failure of the plan. This would also make it difficult for the group to obtain weapons to deal with onboard defenses on the ships. We can assume Xizor would try to steal completed warships, as it does him no good to obtain a half-completed ship that can't enter battle for some time. The Sith warships were prepared for attempts to steal them, being equipped with droids to help defend them (I did some searching on wikipedia for what Revan likely obtained from Czerka, since Aubere's Jedi Civil War thread mentions that Revan had an exclusive trade agreement with Czerka Corporation).

The droids were relatively simplistic, consisting mainly of http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_I_assault_droid and
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_IV_assault_droid . While they wouldn't be as advanced as IG-86 droids, the articles note that the droids were highly effective in their time at preventing Republic forces from capturing Sith warships, and both could be equipped with energy shields. This would allow the droids to be an effective counter to an attempt by Xizor to steal ships, and could help slow assassins that attempted to board a ship. This also means that ships left at shipyards would likely not be defenseless, as the droids normally assigned to defend the ship could be left onboard during repairs.

Because Revan received many of his supplies from Czerka, it would also take time for Xizor to significantly impact Revan's supply chains due to the amount of resources available. Czerka was a galaxy-spanning corporation with the capacity to carry out operations of its own, such as the slaving operation on Kashyyyk, and continue to operate after significant losses (failed investments on Tatooine, for example). It's unlikely Czerka would leave convoys undefended if suffering from pirate raids, or they could agree to give Revan more supplies in exchange for protection.

(I think that Czerka is an acceptable argument because it falls into the same category as the ubiquitous "black market" that's supplying Xizor everything. When it's accepted that targeting black market facilities could cause smugglers and the like to attack Revan's forces, then it seems acceptable that Czerka be allowed as well, as it is essentially a counterpart to the black market. This excerpt is only important if the "no outside factions" rule is brought up, as an attempt to counter it preemptively.)

-----------------------------------

Revan was also known to preserve and take advantage of resources when possible. For example, it's equally likely that if he discovered the IG-86 factory, he would simply take it over and use it to produce assassin droids for himself as it is that he would destroy it outright. So if Xizor doesn't provide protection to the factories producing the IG-86 units, there's a very good chance that the IG-86 units would begin to turn up in Revan's forces.

Also, it isn't overly difficult for Revan to find the assassin droid factories. He simply needs to capture someone that knows the location and is willing to trade it for their life, or to obtain the memory core of an IG-86 droid if an assassination attempt fails (or if one of the droids is captured in another battle before the attempt to kill Revan. It's not logical that Xizor would use the droids only to target Revan, as Xizor is supposed to be resourceful, and therefore should see that he can employ the assassin droids for other tasks as well).

If Revan discovers the IG droids before the attempt to assassinate him, then it makes it far more difficult to use the droids to assassinate Revan (he will expect assassin droids), and gives Revan more assassins to use against Black Sun. Because Xizor's trap would take time to set up (he has to convince Revan that the trap is worthwhile, which means taking time to make Revan confident of victory or at least taking time to spread misinformation and make it more convincing.) Also, Revan is a skilled strategist and has the Force to sense impending danger, so it will take time to create a trap he won't foresee either logically or through the Force.

Why are we assuming that Revan will get information "Xizor will be here" and automatically assume "Xizor will be where the intel said"? Malak might go for it, but Revan is a little bit smarter than that
Astinic level 55 sniper, Canderous Ordo server (now Jedi Covenant)

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.18.2013 , 12:16 PM | #173
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
At this point, I am just kinda tired of it all(hence my little posting as of late), and Xizor and the Black Sun are some of my fav chars/organizations in SWU. Beni wondering, do you have anything else planned after this whole Kaggath thing is over?
This debate has been going on for a while, so I think I'll wrap things up soon. And yeah, I've got a whole load of stuff planned. Not just more Kaggath's either. Stay tuned.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.18.2013 , 12:18 PM | #174
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
This debate has been going on for a while, so I think I'll wrap things up soon. And yeah, I've got a whole load of stuff planned. Not just more Kaggath's either. Stay tuned.
Hmm...alright then looking forward to it.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.18.2013 , 01:03 PM | #175
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Hmm, perhaps sabotage could work. But then again, unless Xizor does serious damage to Revan's fleets - he's not going to be needing reinforcements. And those shipyards can be repaired. As for Kuat, the cover would be blown when Kuat doesn't end of producing fleets for Revan and instead starts shipping out Star Destroyers to Xizor. Then its just a case of giving Xizor a taste of his own medicine and destroying them from the inside. Or do what the Sith Empire did in the Battle of Sluis Van - send in bombers and fighters to break the ring apart. No matter how well defended Kuat is, I doubt it could withstand a full invasion from Revan's Empire, an empire that has experience attacking and capturing shipyards.

I'm sure by then the playing field will be leveled out. A few Imperial-class Star Destroyers and Venators would give Xizor the edge in capital ship firepower, then combine that with the Black Market tech (notable Mass Drivers, but Xizor's devious mind could upgrade them with other tech).

Quote:
Or did what the Master did () capture the Kuat and Kuats and force him out of his deal with Xizor.


Quote:
And you make a good point about the Black Market, it would be difficult if not impossible to rumble them all. But he could burn down the major ones, and remember if he takes out the factories, the market will have nothing to sell. Even if Xizor plunders the lot, his tech will start to dry up pretty quick as Revan tears down the rest of his powerbase. Not to say he will, after all Xizor can't see the future, he won't expect an attack on factories he doesn't even own, he won't start plundering the black market until Revan attacks the factories, and by then it will be too late.
I think Xizor will be moving to get Black Market tech as soon as possible. Thanks to Random Dude telling him about Revan's Empire (), Xizor will want to get as many advantages as possible, and illegal tech is a huge advantage. There's a reason it's illegal lol.

Quote:
Oh and about smugglers and bounty hunters, you misread. What I said is smugglers and bounty hunters don't tend to use black markets that much, its mainly the local populace and the crime syndicates. But the crime syndicates don't exist in the Kaggath so that doesn't matter.
Ah, I see.

Quote:
How does Revan find Vigos? Well every time Revan invades a Black Sun base, he's going to get more and more intel on their whereabouts and the locations of other bases, as well as the location of Xizor.
But here's the question: can Revan get to Xizor before Xizor hits him with a deadly trap. Remember that even Thrawn was defeated by unforeseen events. Xizor's intel network can ensure that will happen.

(Of course Thrawn was going to win if it weren't for Rukh)


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
This debate has been going on for a while, so I think I'll wrap things up soon. And yeah, I've got a whole load of stuff planned. Not just more Kaggath's either. Stay tuned.
What kind of stuff? Personally, I've been thinking of starting my own versus series (not like others where it's completely unbalanced), but if you were planning on it, then I'll leave it to you.

I'm also looking forward to the second Kaggath tournament.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.18.2013 , 01:59 PM | #176
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm sure by then the playing field will be leveled out. A few Imperial-class Star Destroyers and Venators would give Xizor the edge in capital ship firepower, then combine that with the Black Market tech (notable Mass Drivers, but Xizor's devious mind could upgrade them with other tech).
I'm not sure that will level the playing field very much at all. I mean Revan's ships are powerful in there own right, and superior numbers can overwhelm those sort of odds. And the problem with ugrading them with tech is that stuff is unlikely to be illegal, and I doubt ship upgrades are sold on the black market, that's the sort of stuff he's going to be sourcing from factories and the like, which Revan will be destroying and taking over.

I feel bad about this, but I've just thought of an awesome(ish ) scenario. In the opening stages of the battle, Revan invades and takes over (stealthily) various tech factories such as the IG-86 factory and MandalMotors. Under these new guises he supplies Xizor with the tech and floods the black market, but its all rigged. Weapons explode when fired, droids turn on there owners, starships malfunction etc etc. whats most important here is the IGs, they'll all be rigged to turn on Xizor. So once Xizor starts buying them they infiltrate his powerbase, track him down, and assassinate him - all the while foiling his own assassination attempts on Revan.

P.S. No Aurbere, feel free to do a VS thread (I'd actually encourage it, been a long time since I can properly get into a good debate) I have other things planned... company secrets I'm afraid

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.18.2013 , 02:06 PM | #177
The arguments for Xizor's fleet are beginning to get rather farcical. Even if Kuat builds a few capitol ships for him, it's going to take a very long time before he has enough capitol ships to even hope to match Revan's armadas in open battler. As it's been stated, Revan can bottle up that shipyard in short order, long before Xizor has built an entire Navy.

On top of this, once he's bought the ships... who will crew Xizor's fleet? He doesn't have the personnel or officers to man capitol ships. While it's plausible he could gather up a few capable crews, certainly not enough to wage all out war against Revan's fleets.

As for the black market tech, of course he'll be gathering it up and trying to use it, but it's not going to magically tip the tides in his favor when the raw military power of Revan's forces is overwhelming their defences at every point.

Also, the argument that Xizor's intel networks could magically permit him to make Revan use bad strategies, or blunder into traps, is fairly absurd. The purpose of an intelligence network is to gather information. Xizor would find out from his spies that Revan was gunning for him, and probably which bases were about to be hit. From there, what would he do? Run? Abandon those bases?

Every time Xizor flees from Revan, ducks and hides, he loses face with the rest of Black Sun. Where they abandon their strongholds and warehouses, other criminals will move in and take over. Revan isn't fighting the entire underworld, just Xizor, and Black Sun to the extent that it supports him. Pretty soon, things are going to start looking very bleak for him, and his lieutenants (greedy criminals, who are pretty devious) will start looking for safer alternatives to conflict.

I foresee an endgame with Xizor fortified in his hidden Mustafar base, issuing orders to his Vigos by holocommunications. He's fairly safe from assassins because he's hidden, but he's losing touch with his organization because only a select few are allowed direct contact with him. While he's out of the galactic arena, Revan is tearing around crushing every Black Sun base he finds, slaughtering anyone who helps Xizor, and locking down the shipyards of the galaxy to prevent Xizor from building or purchases any large military vessels. Meanwhile, his troops keep recruiting and training more troopers and officers, his fleets grow at his shipyards, and Czerka pumps a steady stream of weapons and supplies over to him.

Sure, pirates will harass and attack some convoys, but most of Revan's transports will be well guarded by escorts, and the pirates will seek easier prey rather than die in one-sided space battles. As for mass drivers, if Xizor puts them on his ships, why wouldn't Revan? They're hardly difficult to design, just that they were experimental weapons not commonly in use. The first time Xizor uses one in combat, it's likely Revan will start putting them onto warships as well. The same goes for the IG-86's, if he doesn't just capture the factory and use them for himself, Revan (the designer of HK-47, who was pretty much the original mass-murdering assassin droid) would probably produce HK-50's en masse and unleash them to infiltrate and destroy Black Sun operations and black markets.

The "game" being played here is not what Aurbere thinks it is. The shadow war only works if both players are in the shadows. In this case, Revan can fight confidently in the open, while Xizor cannot. This game is far more direct and violent, one that Xizor is not equipped to fight. The strengths of Black Sun lie in being able to blackmail police and governments, manipulate senators, customs officials, and strong arm the other criminal syndicates out of their way. They make money, and use it to grease the wheels of government in their favor. However, they cannot challenge a military power without taking considerable losses. It is not in their nature to wage war, but rather to stand aside and let events unfold, selling their services to both sides.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.18.2013 , 02:12 PM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I'm not sure that will level the playing field very much at all. I mean Revan's ships are powerful in there own right, and superior numbers can overwhelm those sort of odds. And the problem with ugrading them with tech is that stuff is unlikely to be illegal, and I doubt ship upgrades are sold on the black market, that's the sort of stuff he's going to be sourcing from factories and the like, which Revan will be destroying and taking over.

I feel bad about this, but I've just thought of an awesome(ish ) scenario. In the opening stages of the battle, Revan invades and takes over (stealthily) various tech factories such as the IG-86 factory and MandalMotors. Under these new guises he supplies Xizor with the tech and floods the black market, but its all rigged. Weapons explode when fired, droids turn on there owners, starships malfunction etc etc. whats most important here is the IGs, they'll all be rigged to turn on Xizor. So once Xizor starts buying them they infiltrate his powerbase, track him down, and assassinate him - all the while foiling his own assassination attempts on Revan.

P.S. No Aurbere, feel free to do a VS thread (I'd actually encourage it, been a long time since I can properly get into a good debate) I have other things planned... company secrets I'm afraid
I don't know if that scenario would work. Xizor's intel network would alert him to such things (I believe, I'm not the person to answer that question as my knowledge of Black Sun is limited). I think I'll leave the debate here. I'm sure Warren will be able to handle the rest.

I'm giddy with anticipation for your future endeavors.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.18.2013 , 03:09 PM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
The "game" being played here is not what Aurbere thinks it is. The shadow war only works if both players are in the shadows. In this case, Revan can fight confidently in the open, while Xizor cannot. This game is far more direct and violent, one that Xizor is not equipped to fight. The strengths of Black Sun lie in being able to blackmail police and governments, manipulate senators, customs officials, and strong arm the other criminal syndicates out of their way. They make money, and use it to grease the wheels of government in their favor. However, they cannot challenge a military power without taking considerable losses. It is not in their nature to wage war, but rather to stand aside and let events unfold, selling their services to both sides.
I'm not going to respond to everything (because you don't have all of the facts).

A shadow game works in favor of the one in the shadows. Shouldn't Darth Sidious be a reminder of that?

Revan will be out in the open while the Black Sun is hidden. They have secret bases hidden across the galaxy, not to mention the ones hidden in plain sight on planets like Corellia or Anaxes. Xizor's bases aren't easy to find.

And stop underestimating the Black Sun forces. Seriously. They have Venators, they can crew capital ships. They have access to Black Market technology. And they have the advantage of being invisible. Plus Xizor has bottomless pockets.

You underestimate the advantages of being in the shadows. You underestimate the resources that Xizor has.


I said I was done before, but when you get called out... Anyway, now I'm done. You can call it now, Beni. Unless others have something to say.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.18.2013 , 03:21 PM | #180
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm not going to respond to everything (because you don't have all of the facts).

A shadow game works in favor of the one in the shadows. Shouldn't Darth Sidious be a reminder of that?

Revan will be out in the open while the Black Sun is hidden. They have secret bases hidden across the galaxy, not to mention the ones hidden in plain sight on planets like Corellia or Anaxes. Xizor's bases aren't easy to find.

And stop underestimating the Black Sun forces. Seriously. They have Venators, they can crew capital ships. They have access to Black Market technology. And they have the advantage of being invisible. Plus Xizor has bottomless pockets.

You underestimate the advantages of being in the shadows. You underestimate the resources that Xizor has.


I said I was done before, but when you get called out... Anyway, now I'm done. You can call it now, Beni. Unless others have something to say.
Not to mention, Revan is used to fighting a full scale war not a shadow war, so really its a disadvantage for him and an advantage for Xizor.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.