Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
02.17.2013 , 04:27 PM | #151
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
How exactly are the IG-86 droids going to even get on Revan's ship without being detected? We aren't exactly talking about the Ravanger here that only has a skeleton crew if that...

Revan's ship would have a full crew compliment, that means even in the midst of a battle, there would be the report of a hull breach, there are also certain key sections that would be under heavy guard such as the Engineering/Reactor Core and the bridge...
The IG-86's would obviously be detected. But they can work fast enough that it won't matter if Revan knows they're there. For example: going directly to the engines/core.

And you can argue that the engines and core would be guarded all you want, but I challenge you to come up with one sci-fy ship with a well defended engineering. It just doesn't happen. The added personel would make working in the space very difficult. And one stray blaster bolt could severly damage the ship. Having soldiers and Sith defend the ship and the fire-fight that would ensue would only ensure that the core/engines would be damaged. In Star Wars, most of the engineers are droids anyways, so there's no reason to even have real people down there.

Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The IG-86 droids would be fighting against elite troopers and a bunch of lightsaber wielding Sith... I don't think the sabotage scenario is plausible.
In the clip Wolfinajedi provided, you can see that they're more than capable of taking on Jedi, even the Choosen One and his padawan (hero characters, mind you). And the more the merrier. Grenades, smoke bombs, whatever, they'd be more than equipped to take on troops, for sure. They can obviously handle force-users as well. And note: the more damage they do, the more battles they get into, the better. It's Revan's ship, not theirs.

Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
In order for the IG-86 droids to pull off a forced entry into the ship, they would have to go through the hanger or use an entry pod, a hull breach would be detected rather quickly and an explosive decompression would be stupid for an IG-86 droid cause everything that wasn't nailed down would be flying at them.

Finally, I thought the Leviathan sported unusually heavy armor, that would kinda put a dent in the tunneling into the starship routine.
There are plenty of ways to get into a ship, besides the hanger or a hull breach. I've already listed a few. But if you insist on hanger:

Let's say the IG-86s enter the hanger in the middle of a battle. Fighters are leaving and the IG's shuttle glides in stealthed. The IGs then exit the ship as it de-cloaks. Suddenly alarms go off and everything goes to chaos. Not only will Revan no longer be sending out fighters, but his hanger will be getting shot to bits. So the IGs split up. A number of them stay to defend the ship, some take the direct route to the bridge, and some go through the service elevators used by droids to get to the engine rooms. (For example, if anyone read the SWTOR book "Annihilation", Theron Shan does a smiliar thing to get to the bowels of the Ascendant Spear). Not only does the ship have intel and external problems to worry about, but the IGs sent to the bridge potencially slow Revan's escape* and the droids in the hanger draw most of the fire from soldiers and Sith throughout the ship.

Now the IGs heading (undetected) to the core/engines are free to do their work and blow up the ship in one big KABOOM!


*Revan using an escape pod....?

Excuse me, but how did this become a valid argument? Revan was confronted, during a space battle, by a half dozen JEDI and didn't flee. He stood on the bridge, hum-drum waiting for them to challenge him. If Revan did not run from Jedi, there is no WAY he would flee to the escape pods to avoid assassin droids. Like I said before, arguments that are not true to Revan's character can't be made because they would never happen.

Revan won't be fleeing his ship anytime soon.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.17.2013 , 06:14 PM | #152
Good point about the engine room Warren, however Revan could just have the entrance heavily guarded. However I don't think Revan would stay and fight. In the other situation he knew the Jedi would come for him, else they wouldn't have sent Jedi, and he knew they would attempt to capture him, because Jedi don't kill if they don't have to and always try and redeem. In this case however Revan would be confident that Xizor doesn't have anything powerful enough in his armada to confront him one on one. That also means he'll expect any attack launched by Xizor to be one of sabotage or assassination. So as soon as danger rears its ugly head, he's going to get out of there ASAP. And not necessarily in an escape pod, more likely in a private shuttle, just hop to another ship.

And they won't be coming through the hangar, the hangar will be sealed. But they can still come through the airlock, or alternatively - if they manage to draw Revan into a space battle, via boarding craft. This would give them an edge as they can infiltrate the ship from different angles and potentially cut off escape.

I think engaging Revan in a full on space battle could give Xizor an advantage. Not only does it make inflitration easier but it may discourage Revan from fleeing (exposing him to ship fire) immediately, and instead attempt to solve the threat (e.g. like when Anakin and Obi Wan boarded the Invisible Hand.) Or at least attack Revan if he tries to escape. But how would Xizor lure Revan into a space battle?

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.17.2013 , 06:26 PM | #153
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But how would Xizor lure Revan into a space battle?
A ploy? Have Revan's fleet intercept a false transmission, to which they go to specific coordinates and that is when Xizor's fleet moves into position? Infact actually, certain space conditions could also give an advantage Xizor could lead them into the Voidfire Nebula which would scramble ship systems and actually damage them, and they wouldn't be able to jump into hyperspace to escape. Now would they risk it? Probably not, though if the target were to be there I don't see why not.

Of course that would mean Xizor's ships too would be in the same boat, however its just an example. Main point is really sending a false transmission for Revan's command to intercept, and head right into an ambush.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.17.2013 , 06:41 PM | #154
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But how would Xizor lure Revan into a space battle?
How indeed.. Maybe a gravity well generator combined with some deception.

Xizor can also whittle away Revan's forces by attacking supply convoys. This will force Revan to either deploy more military vessels to protect these convoys, or let them be raided and destroyed. Either choice will benefit Xizor, the second giving Xizor even more resources.

Xizor can also move people into Revan's shipyards by disguising them as engineers. These engineers can steal Revan's ships that are docked there and then destroy the shipyards. This will give Xizor an space advantage as Revan's fleets will be limited in numbers.

Xizor will also be decking out his forces in Black Market tech, making bioweapons, and purchasing ships to supplement his growing armada. Eventually, Xizor's shadow tactic can allow him to engage and win an all out war.

This relies on Xizor being invisible for the entire Kaggath, which will prove difficult if Revan gets his hands on one of the higher ups in the Black Sun (I have no idea what the chain of command is for the Black Sun).
Added Chapter 65 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Canino's Avatar


Canino
02.17.2013 , 06:51 PM | #155
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
A ploy? Have Revan's fleet intercept a false transmission, to which they go to specific coordinates and that is when Xizor's fleet moves into position? Infact actually, certain space conditions could also give an advantage Xizor could lead them into the Voidfire Nebula which would scramble ship systems and actually damage them, and they wouldn't be able to jump into hyperspace to escape. Now would they risk it? Probably not, though if the target were to be there I don't see why not.

Of course that would mean Xizor's ships too would be in the same boat, however its just an example. Main point is really sending a false transmission for Revan's command to intercept, and head right into an ambush.
I would use false information + an ambush in order to accomplish a perfect scenario. Use a gravity well to pull out the fleet in random space, nowhere near a planet. Then let the battle begin.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
02.17.2013 , 07:38 PM | #156
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I don't think Revan would stay and fight. In the other situation he knew the Jedi would come for him, else they wouldn't have sent Jedi, and he knew they would attempt to capture him, because Jedi don't kill if they don't have to and always try and redeem. In this case however Revan would be confident that Xizor doesn't have anything powerful enough in his armada to confront him one on one.
I can say, with 100% certainty, that Revan did not stay on his ship to be confronted by Jedi so that he could be captured. That makes exactly zero sense. In fact, he thought, and probably rightfully so, that he could take the Jedi. So actually, Revan would be MORE LIKELY to stay on his crusier because he knows he can face whatever Xizor throws at him.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.17.2013 , 10:41 PM | #157
Gentlemen,

Allow me to weigh in on this most interesting debate. I would like to address several points here, the first of which is the matter of assassination.

Revan clearly understood the value of assassins, and used them to great effect against numerous targets during his military campaigns. He trained under Traya and was a master of applying precise force at the critical moment to tip the tides in his favor. He employed droids (such as HK-47), force users, and specially trained operatives to capture or kill both force users and other targets. So far, all the arguments have consisted of developing increasingly specific and desperate scenarios in which some assassins sent by Xizor MIGHT kill Revan. No one has addressed the obvious possibility of fanatical assassins trained and dispatched by Revan simply killing Xizor, or slaughtering his underlings and destroying his criminal syndicate.

This leads me to my second point. So far everyone has assumed that Xizor's syndicate is invincible and untouchable. This is highly unrealistic. So far, Black Sun has survived because it embedded itself in the political and economic structure of the galaxy. They, like all gangsters, hid behind the laws and technicalities of police jurisdiction while bribing or blackmailing any authorities who gave them trouble.

Revan, being a military mastermind and bold strategist, would not sit idly by and allow mere pirates to raid his convoys with impunity. He would target the infrastructure that sustained Black Sun. The spice, the smuggling, etc. would all fall under attack from his armada. Pirates worst fear is interdiction by an organized Navy. The best tactic for Revan would be to ignore Xizor, and instead keep him on the run and in hiding, constantly chased by fanatical assassins while Revan's military forces systematically destroyed every source of Black Sun revenue.

It would go something like this:
-Smugglers would be raided and killed without hesitation (Revan hardly cares about the legalities of search and seizure, and a handy guideline could be "If they're not our supplies, confiscate or destroy them")

-Warehouses, drugs, spice deposits, etc. would be either blasted from orbit or bulldozed in a ground campaign (The Sith are not noted for losing sleep over collateral damage or civilian casualties)

-Any attempt by Xizor to gather a massive fleet of pirates and other criminals of their ilk would draw the attention of Revan's fleets. Pirates aren't known for their operational security, and any force large enough to threaten Revan's armadas would certainly be noticed gathering. This would come down to a contest of deception and manouver, at which the TRAINED MILITARY ARMADA, led by one of the greatest tacticians to ever live, would probably have an edge over whatever eclectic gathering of mercenaries and pirates Xizor could drum up.

Sorry if this sounds really one-sided, but it kinda is. I'm just irritated that no one has addressed any offensive tactics for Revan other than "Dur, there's Xizor's base! Everyone, attack!". Seriously, the man won every war he ever got into, and has the fanatical devotion of his armada. Every other military in his day and age feared him (The Echani, the Mandos, the Republic, everyone.)

For every offensive tactic in Xizor's book (assassins, convoy raiding, sabotage, etc.) Revan has an equally powerful equivalent. Xizor might have the edge in illegal tech, but that would not make much difference large scale. And for every bioweapon his techs dream up, Revan's forces will simply be able to deploy conventional WMD's just as easily.

Lastly, Revan has the advantage in that all of his bases are military installations, well guarded and protected conventionally. Black Sun mostly relies on subterfuge and disguises to hide their bases. In order to carry out any kind of raids, they would have to come and go from these bases, allowing them to be tracked and discovered. From there, a conventional assault could clean up those pirate outposts or obliterate supply depots, leaving Black Sun in the uncomfortable position of slowly running out of money to pay their various goons.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
02.17.2013 , 11:24 PM | #158
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Revan clearly understood the value of assassins, and used them to great effect against numerous targets during his military campaigns. He trained under Traya and was a master of applying precise force at the critical moment to tip the tides in his favor. He employed droids (such as HK-47), force users, and specially trained operatives to capture or kill both force users and other targets. So far, all the arguments have consisted of developing increasingly specific and desperate scenarios in which some assassins sent by Xizor MIGHT kill Revan. No one has addressed the obvious possibility of fanatical assassins trained and dispatched by Revan simply killing Xizor, or slaughtering his underlings and destroying his criminal syndicate.
1.) You say Revan assassination examples are " increasingly specific and desperate", but I fail to see how lacking details is a good thing when arguing assassinations. They are complicated and delicate things to carry out, so while it may seem like we're grasping for straws, we're really just making the scenario that much stronger.

2.) You say Xizor's assassins "MIGHT" kill Revan, but there is no garentee that Revan's will kill Xizor either. We're debating in hypotheticals, so saying the fact that something might happen makes it an invalid argument is wrong.

3.) No one has yet to put forward a successful assassination scenario for Xizor because of the fact that he can disappear. Revan is a leader on the front lines. Xizor is not. It is much harder to assassinate someone in hiding than someone out in the open. And it's a BIG galaxy.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
This leads me to my second point. So far everyone has assumed that Xizor's syndicate is invincible and untouchable. This is highly unrealistic. So far, Black Sun has survived because it embedded itself in the political and economic structure of the galaxy. They, like all gangsters, hid behind the laws and technicalities of police jurisdiction while bribing or blackmailing any authorities who gave them trouble.
I think you fail to understand how underworld organizations work in Star Wars. The Black Sun is not a street gang to Revan's police. The Black Sun is a galactic power that have survived for thousands of years. I would encourage you to look at this post. The Black Sun is VERY powerful.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Revan, being a military mastermind and bold strategist, would not sit idly by and allow mere pirates to raid his convoys with impunity. He would target the infrastructure that sustained Black Sun. The spice, the smuggling, etc. would all fall under attack from his armada. Pirates worst fear is interdiction by an organized Navy. The best tactic for Revan would be to ignore Xizor, and instead keep him on the run and in hiding, constantly chased by fanatical assassins while Revan's military forces systematically destroyed every source of Black Sun revenue.
If Revan did feel like it was a good idea to attack the underworld directly and hurt all illegal business in the entire galaxy, that would only help Xizor. Now everyone who is anyone in the underworld will join him, including countless smugglers, bounty hunters, spice dealers, and other criminals that are now homeless after their organziations have disappeared.

And the galaxy's a big place. With lots of spice, smuggling, etc. And time is ticking for Revan as Xizor gathers his forces and sets his traps/assassins.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
For every offensive tactic in Xizor's book (assassins, convoy raiding, sabotage, etc.) Revan has an equally powerful equivalent. Xizor might have the edge in illegal tech, but that would not make much difference large scale. And for every bioweapon his techs dream up, Revan's forces will simply be able to deploy conventional WMD's just as easily.
1.) Illegal tech does matter GREATLY, as you can see from the countless number of times we have pointed out how Xizor can use it. Not only will it aid his ships, but his armies and assassins.

2.) WMD's aren't allowed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Lastly, Revan has the advantage in that all of his bases are military installations, well guarded and protected conventionally. Black Sun mostly relies on subterfuge and disguises to hide their bases. In order to carry out any kind of raids, they would have to come and go from these bases, allowing them to be tracked and discovered. From there, a conventional assault could clean up those pirate outposts or obliterate supply depots, leaving Black Sun in the uncomfortable position of slowly running out of money to pay their various goons.
1.) The Black Sun will not run out of credits. Like ever. Xizor has bottomless pockets.

2.) The Black Sun will be on Revan's worlds. They will be right under his nose. They will be everywhere. The thing is, underworld organizations are GOOD at staying hidden. Do you think, in the time before the Clone Wars, in the time before SWTOR, in the times of peace that the Republic has not tried to wipe out crime? It just doesn't happen. You can try, but crime exists in the presense of government. And Revan is no different. They'll thrive under him as they do under anyone else.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.17.2013 , 11:29 PM | #159
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Gentlemen,

Allow me to weigh in on this most interesting debate. I would like to address several points here, the first of which is the matter of assassination.

Revan clearly understood the value of assassins, and used them to great effect against numerous targets during his military campaigns. He trained under Traya and was a master of applying precise force at the critical moment to tip the tides in his favor. He employed droids (such as HK-47), force users, and specially trained operatives to capture or kill both force users and other targets. So far, all the arguments have consisted of developing increasingly specific and desperate scenarios in which some assassins sent by Xizor MIGHT kill Revan. No one has addressed the obvious possibility of fanatical assassins trained and dispatched by Revan simply killing Xizor, or slaughtering his underlings and destroying his criminal syndicate.
Which is something I brought up earlier. However, given the nature of the Black Sun and the Dark Prince and all of the tools at his disposal, such a strategy is unlikely to happen

Quote:
This leads me to my second point. So far everyone has assumed that Xizor's syndicate is invincible and untouchable. This is highly unrealistic. So far, Black Sun has survived because it embedded itself in the political and economic structure of the galaxy. They, like all gangsters, hid behind the laws and technicalities of police jurisdiction while bribing or blackmailing any authorities who gave them trouble.
Xizor's power and galactic influence was second only to the Emperor.

Quote:
Revan, being a military mastermind and bold strategist, would not sit idly by and allow mere pirates to raid his convoys with impunity. He would target the infrastructure that sustained Black Sun. The spice, the smuggling, etc. would all fall under attack from his armada. Pirates worst fear is interdiction by an organized Navy. The best tactic for Revan would be to ignore Xizor, and instead keep him on the run and in hiding, constantly chased by fanatical assassins while Revan's military forces systematically destroyed every source of Black Sun revenue.
Over estimating Revan's tactical know-how, but okay. You are under the impression that the Black Sun is unorganized and just a simple crime syndicate. That is so wrong. The Black Sun is the largest crime syndicate in the galaxy. Under Prince Xizor, the Black Sun held a vast influence across the galaxy, rivaling the Galactic Empire (an Empire far superior to Revan's little Splinter Empire).

Quote:
It would go something like this:
-Smugglers would be raided and killed without hesitation (Revan hardly cares about the legalities of search and seizure, and a handy guideline could be "If they're not our supplies, confiscate or destroy them")
Revan would have to devote a large chunk of his forces to rooting out the smugglers, which would only hurt his campaign.

Quote:
-Warehouses, drugs, spice deposits, etc. would be either blasted from orbit or bulldozed in a ground campaign (The Sith are not noted for losing sleep over collateral damage or civilian casualties)
How long is it going to take for Revan to root out all of the Black Sun's warehouses and the like? He has to scour the galaxy for them. Literally. Even the most obscure locations hold Black Sun bases.

Quote:
-Any attempt by Xizor to gather a massive fleet of pirates and other criminals of their ilk would draw the attention of Revan's fleets. Pirates aren't known for their operational security, and any force large enough to threaten Revan's armadas would certainly be noticed gathering. This would come down to a contest of deception and manouver, at which the TRAINED MILITARY ARMADA, led by one of the greatest tacticians to ever live, would probably have an edge over whatever eclectic gathering of mercenaries and pirates Xizor could drum up.
Xizor's intel network could leave Revan's forces in the dark while he gathered and beefed up his fleet (which is already well established) and ground forces with Black Market tech (disintegrators, Mass Drivers etc.)

Quote:
Sorry if this sounds really one-sided, but it kinda is. I'm just irritated that no one has addressed any offensive tactics for Revan other than "Dur, there's Xizor's base! Everyone, attack!". Seriously, the man won every war he ever got into, and has the fanatical devotion of his armada. Every other military in his day and age feared him (The Echani, the Mandos, the Republic, everyone.)
Revan won the Mandalorian Wars due to superior numbers and the Jedi. He then led the Splinter Empire against a severely crippled Republic. Not exactly the creme de la creme. You should note that even Grand Admiral Thrawn (the greatest tactician to ever live) was overcome by unforeseen events. Xizor (and other shadowy-types) specializes in 'unforeseen' events.

Quote:
For every offensive tactic in Xizor's book (assassins, convoy raiding, sabotage, etc.) Revan has an equally powerful equivalent. Xizor might have the edge in illegal tech, but that would not make much difference large scale. And for every bioweapon his techs dream up, Revan's forces will simply be able to deploy conventional WMD's just as easily.
Xizor gets bioweapons because he has used them. Has Revan used any bioweapons or WMDs?

Quote:
Lastly, Revan has the advantage in that all of his bases are military installations, well guarded and protected conventionally. Black Sun mostly relies on subterfuge and disguises to hide their bases. In order to carry out any kind of raids, they would have to come and go from these bases, allowing them to be tracked and discovered. From there, a conventional assault could clean up those pirate outposts or obliterate supply depots, leaving Black Sun in the uncomfortable position of slowly running out of money to pay their various goons.
Again, you underestimate the Black Sun (something I did during the previous tri-battle). The Black Sun spans the galaxy. Xizor can move people into prime locations to remove Revan's assets. And he won't be running out of money.

And while Revan is going about this scenario, what do you think Xizor will be doing? He won't be sitting on his hands, that's for sure. He's going to bring the full force of the Black Market and the Black Sun to bear on Revan's Empire. If Revan tries to sweep away Xizor's powerbase (which he can't), Xizor will consolidate his forces (using his intel network to keep Revan blind to it) and outfit them with Black Market tech. He will make his capital ships superior to Revan's vessels, his fighters superior to Revan's fighters (which they were already, but this will be overkill), and make his soldiers superior to Revan's soldiers. His only issue will be the Dark Jedi, but that can be dealt with as well.

Also, Xizor will be infiltrating Revan's bases. Even if they are military installations, Xizor can get people in. Disguise some of his guys as engineers or maintenance crews, have them sneak in a bioweapon and set it off. There goes that base.

What's that? Revan catches on? OK, send in some astromechs to do the same thing. Xizor has options. And once he disappears from Revan's view, those options go up.

Basically, Revan has no options here. The only real option is for him to send out assassins right away to kill Xizor, but even that might not work as Xizor may just want to head out to his secret base on Mustafar (which is not known to Revan as it was not known to Traya or Kun in the previous battle).

And Warren, thanks for that one post on the Black Sun. I've been thinking of doing a thread series on organizations (to go along with cults Force based or otherwise), and the Black Sun would definitely be the first thread.
Added Chapter 65 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Darksaberexile's Avatar


Darksaberexile
02.18.2013 , 01:36 AM | #160
I can't contribute a lot to this debate since I don't know a lot about the Black Sun. But, since everyone likes scenarios with Revan being assassinated, I'd just like to point out that Revan's precognitive abilities work just fine, so he can since impending danger. (It's not necessary to go "Hey, there's droids on the ship that shouldn't be!" to get a feeling through the Force that there was imminent danger.)

So, at least in my opinion, it seems reasonable to me to assume that Revan would have some sense that a trap was imminent, or if an assassination attempt was underway. He wouldn't have lived long as a dark lord of the Sith otherwise. (And in case Malak's betrayal is brought up as a counterpoint, having played Kotor it seemed to be implied that it was a spur of the moment decision by Malak to betray Revan, and it was done while Revan was preoccupied by the Jedi. So assassination attempts during battle might be easier, but I wouldn't assume Revan will just walk his fleet into a trap for Xizor's convenience before that.)

(if any of this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to edit it later, posting at 1:30 AM after doing a bunch of homework, so I cannot guarantee it's 100% coherent)
Astinic level 55 sniper, Canderous Ordo server (now Jedi Covenant)