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Some Thoughts on Improving the Sorcerer's (& Sage) Abilities

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Some Thoughts on Improving the Sorcerer's (& Sage) Abilities

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
02.04.2013 , 10:44 AM | #11
This may sound obvious, but you realize that if you cut down the cast times of all these abilities by half, then you will do twice as much DPS as before, right? Perhaps this will make the class capable of doing some burst, but you just moved PVE lightning sorcs from 2000 to 3000 DPS easily.

As for Alacrity, it's probably the most worthless stat in the history of stats. It's so easy to hit DR and then you get nothing for adding more. Surge is far better to stack past DR since you will still gain SOMETHING from it, even if it's only 5-10 extra on crits whereas Alacrity won't decrease any further since you can't get a whole other .1 second off your cast times.
I have opinions and stuff

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.04.2013 , 10:54 AM | #12
Yes I can say that because my Madness sorc is my main and ive outdpsd both of my other classes before in pvp and pve. Am I saying "im a high and mighty sorc!" No but its not impossible to outdps those other two classes. At the same time Pyrotech is all burst melee now in pvp you have the advantage of range and easily being able to run your abilities while moving (minus casting FL to proc wrath). Moreover, drop affliction to a group and hit them with deathfield your get some crowd control dps and then you can single out targets. Snipers, specifically Lethality ones like I run, are admit much better at their dot trees than Sorcs. They have longer dots and an aoe dot so yes they can sit back and pick ppl off.

Anyways what you are complaining about is Lightning spec which outside casting time there is no problem. Further more Lighting tree is full of abilities that raise your crit chance, lower the casting and cool down of abilities (Lightning Strikw and Chain Lightning), and increase the damage of moves by various percentages! Its the Pyrotech for Sorcs but you're complaining of what im saying? If casting is such a problem go back and do what I said. If you dont have a second Rakata set buy Tionese Force Master, put in pvp mods, and see that you will have quicker casting to get your moves off faster. The PvP ForceMaster only helps Madness and Hybrids anyways.

You want better defenses for your Lightning, fine I agree 100%. But more damage? For what you have an insta-crit TB, CL that can crit, hit up to 5 targets, AND can created a second Arc to blast for my dps. You have an ability that lowers the cast of your Lightning Strikes, another that lowers CL cast and cooldown, and you have increased range on your abilities. Really everything is right there...you just want more for no reason.

So please continue to say that Pyros are better and blah blah blah. Realize its not impossible to beat them and find ways to do it instead of complaining about something you can fix.
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.04.2013 , 10:59 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
This may sound obvious, but you realize that if you cut down the cast times of all these abilities by half, then you will do twice as much DPS as before, right? Perhaps this will make the class capable of doing some burst, but you just moved PVE lightning sorcs from 2000 to 3000 DPS easily.

As for Alacrity, it's probably the most worthless stat in the history of stats. It's so easy to hit DR and then you get nothing for adding more. Surge is far better to stack past DR since you will still gain SOMETHING from it, even if it's only 5-10 extra on crits whereas Alacrity won't decrease any further since you can't get a whole other .1 second off your cast times.
You are a burst class to begin with. I know what cutting cast time will do but all im seeing is people who want a new version of Wrath->Chain Lightning. And again Lightning tree has abilities that work with cutting casting, and again you have an issue put PvP mods into PvE gear and you'll have even faster dps because the alacrity boost. Yes its a worthless stat in general but its what deals with cast time. So the increase of your alacrity after an Affliction crit makes for easier casting of moves and more of a Glass Turret onslaught
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut

veyl's Avatar


veyl
02.04.2013 , 12:03 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
Yes I can say that because my Madness sorc is my main and ive outdpsd both of my other classes before in pvp and pve. Am I saying "im a high and mighty sorc!" No but its not impossible to outdps those other two classes. At the same time Pyrotech is all burst melee now in pvp you have the advantage of range and easily being able to run your abilities while moving (minus casting FL to proc wrath). Moreover, drop affliction to a group and hit them with deathfield your get some crowd control dps and then you can single out targets. Snipers, specifically Lethality ones like I run, are admit much better at their dot trees than Sorcs. They have longer dots and an aoe dot so yes they can sit back and pick ppl off.

Anyways what you are complaining about is Lightning spec which outside casting time there is no problem. Further more Lighting tree is full of abilities that raise your crit chance, lower the casting and cool down of abilities (Lightning Strikw and Chain Lightning), and increase the damage of moves by various percentages! Its the Pyrotech for Sorcs but you're complaining of what im saying? If casting is such a problem go back and do what I said. If you dont have a second Rakata set buy Tionese Force Master, put in pvp mods, and see that you will have quicker casting to get your moves off faster. The PvP ForceMaster only helps Madness and Hybrids anyways.

You want better defenses for your Lightning, fine I agree 100%. But more damage? For what you have an insta-crit TB, CL that can crit, hit up to 5 targets, AND can created a second Arc to blast for my dps. You have an ability that lowers the cast of your Lightning Strikes, another that lowers CL cast and cooldown, and you have increased range on your abilities. Really everything is right there...you just want more for no reason.

So please continue to say that Pyros are better and blah blah blah. Realize its not impossible to beat them and find ways to do it instead of complaining about something you can fix.
You are absolutely delusional to think Sorcs can out DPS a pyro or a sniper in PVP or PVE. (My point, which you ignored, is that sorcs are completely behind them. You are confusing me with the OP when it comes to Lightning cast on the move.) Also, bringing up Lightning in a PVP setting? I'm a fully min/maxed sorc and my Thundering Blast with it's 1.8 second cast hits a WH'd target with an affliction on it for a wopping 3700. My Marauder, with 1080 expertise annihilate // force scream // Smash // Ravage tick all hit for 4500+ and with the exception of ravage are Instant. My sniper's 1.5 aim shot + followthrough hits for a combined 7k at minimum. My assassins Maul crits for 4500+ again.. 1000 expertise. And lets not forget the execute range abilities that the harder hitting classes have. (I'm sure you've Takedown'd people for 4k at minimum.)

Even with following the TB with a CL proc, you are at most going to hit someone for 6k in a 2 second span, where as two GCDs for any other DPS in this game will hit for much, much harder.

I can top charts on my sorc too but that doesn't mean I can objectively sit back and say that "sorcs are fine". They aren't. They need damage increases because they are behind in PVP and are behind in PVE. The NON PADDED numbers prove it.

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.04.2013 , 12:51 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by veyl View Post
You are absolutely delusional to think Sorcs can out DPS a pyro or a sniper in PVP or PVE. (My point, which you ignored, is that sorcs are completely behind them. You are confusing me with the OP when it comes to Lightning cast on the move.) Also, bringing up Lightning in a PVP setting? I'm a fully min/maxed sorc and my Thundering Blast with it's 1.8 second cast hits a WH'd target with an affliction on it for a wopping 3700. My Marauder, with 1080 expertise annihilate // force scream // Smash // Ravage tick all hit for 4500+ and with the exception of ravage are Instant. My sniper's 1.5 aim shot + followthrough hits for a combined 7k at minimum. My assassins Maul crits for 4500+ again.. 1000 expertise. And lets not forget the execute range abilities that the harder hitting classes have. (I'm sure you've Takedown'd people for 4k at minimum.)

Even with following the TB with a CL proc, you are at most going to hit someone for 6k in a 2 second span, where as two GCDs for any other DPS in this game will hit for much, much harder.

I can top charts on my sorc too but that doesn't mean I can objectively sit back and say that "sorcs are fine". They aren't. They need damage increases because they are behind in PVP and are behind in PVE. The NON PADDED numbers prove it.
im not delusional at all its possible to outdps a Pyro because I have done and I have seen others do it. And I'm not outright saying "sorcs are fine" either because yes we need defenses and such but some of the things being posted (I might've confused you with OP yeah) are like "let's bump our overall dps by 30% and lowers our cast to .5sec." You know what I give I'm not a Lightning Spec like ive said before but cutting your casting in half? you might as well not have a cast at all cause thats what it'll seem like.

If im going to level with you then on both specs (Madness and Lightning) then for Lightning boost "Conduction"damage bonus from 1% to 3% (even 5%) which stacks 3-times, raise "Convections" damage boost from 6% to 10%, and on the madness tree increase either "Calcify" or "Disintergrates" damage or crit chance boost (respectively) from 6% to 10%. This was for Lightning Sorcs you now have 10%+10%+9%(15%)=29%(35%) damage boost which doesnt include "Reverberating Force." For a Madness sorc, increase "Calcify" from 6% to 10% damage boost, "Parasitism" and "DeathField" boost health regen to at least 5%, boost "Creeping Dreams" from 30% to 45% crit damage boost, and either boost the duration or damage boost of "Lingering Nightmare" or "Force Horrors."

What I do give you is that Snipers of any spec are semi-Burst because of their abilities no inclusive to their tree. Series of Shots, Ambush, and Takedown can each hit for massive damage without the target being nailed by the Sniper's tree skills. Still I have been able to outdps Pyros and Snipers before. I'm not saying its every match but its happened and is possible
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut

mulzii's Avatar


mulzii
02.05.2013 , 09:35 PM | #16
i wish they change the bubble altogether. in addition to the basic absorb feature now, let the sorc/sage feat three phases of the bubble (sorta like a stance, only one can be active at a time).

In healing tree, let the sage/sorc feat it so when the bubble ends, a % of all the dmg absorbed by the bubble while active heals the entire team that %, regardless of their range from the caster. make the 31 lvl feat increase the % to promote the lvl 31 skill.

In the lightning tree, when bubble ends, reflect a small % of the damage absorbed while bubble was active to all enemies within 10m of caster, and lets the caster disappear for 6 secs (similar to marauders combat hide) End feat augments the %aoe dps..

For madness, feat the bubble as a single-target 'bomb that can be exploded for a large % of single target burst dmg (high in madness) based on how much dmg the bubble absorbed while it was active on a single target within 30m. % would be higher than lightning's as its single target, but larger range. default to closest enemy if no target was selected.

Have 3 different colors for the bubble, one for the abosrb feature, one for the reflect, one for the bomb, so the enemy can prepare somewhat. bubble would be caster-only of course.

This would help the madness sorc feat a burst ability they sorely lack. Would help healer-specs do their job easier and heal through these smash-monkey times we are experiencing. Lightning sorcs would get some good aoe dps reflect dps that is instant (which is what they lack). It would definately make dps classes hesitiant to 'charge' the bubble for a bomb/team-wide heal/reflect aoe dmg.

pipe-dream i know. But i despise the stun and would to see some creativity in replacing the bubble-stun with something useful to the sorc rather than another nerf...

nachoshark's Avatar


nachoshark
02.05.2013 , 09:46 PM | #17
The people saying "oh, this would be unfair", they probably play a knight or warrior, and are afraid of being challenged in PvP. I say this because it seems pknight and warriors are Bioware's favs, and we inquisitors and consulars are treated like crap. So I suggest to make us a little better ability-wise
Server- Jedi Covenant - Bilzar- lvl 50 Sorcerer, Archannis- lvl 35 Sage,
Deforestar- lvl 20 Mercenary, Macklemorous- lvl 6 Warrior, Tranchlus- lvl 4 Knight,

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
02.06.2013 , 08:45 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by nachoshark View Post
The people saying "oh, this would be unfair", they probably play a knight or warrior, and are afraid of being challenged in PvP. I say this because it seems pknight and warriors are Bioware's favs, and we inquisitors and consulars are treated like crap. So I suggest to make us a little better ability-wise
I think you may need to go back and reread posts a little closer. No one is denying that DPS sorcs lack BURST DPS which is crucial for PVP and need a way to kill things faster. The OP has some good ideas to try and and help in this regard. The issue will be the greater impact of some of these changes in other areas of the game. The difference in DPS between equally geared Sorcs and Maras for instance is in the low hundreds, which makes sense given the melee nature of Maras. Sorc DPS takes a far bigger hit in PVP because they aren't allowed to freecast like they can on a dummy or in PVE.

The changes being recommended would put Sorcs well ahead of every other class in a freecasting environment like a PVE encounter. Think Smash, but in reverse where there is a PVP buff affecting PVE too much. The only way to offer more burst damage is to nerf sustained damage so that the overall DPS is the same, it's just easier to push at the right time for PVP. Although you still have to take things like adrenals and Bloodthirst into account. Those used in PVE in conjunction with increased burst will still give a significant boost to Sorc DPS as well.

Tl;DR The effects of the changes to improve one area may affect the other.
I have opinions and stuff

Sosajoshua's Avatar


Sosajoshua
02.06.2013 , 09:25 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I
Tl;DR The effects of the changes to improve one area may affect the other.
Despite my arguing before.......this.
<A Wretched Hive> Jedi Covenant Rhaegis, Madness Sorcerer / Youngdragon, Advanced Proto-tech / Kha'leesi, Engineering Sniper / Dragonbane, Vengence Juggernaut

Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
02.06.2013 , 12:24 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
Sorry this just looks like qq to me. Yes sorcs/sages (no matter what spec or hybrid) would appreciate more defensive help in PvP in that we need a way to reduce of damage taken. IMO our shields are the best in the game and a well geared sorc wont have it drop so quick to a Shadowstrike, hybrid or not. I do think our new healing we got should be boosted to hit as high our Dark infusions regularly. That i think we can agree would help in general and (not that mny do this) but it be better than running away and usingyour cast heals. Also a slight boost to parasitism (for madness specs) would better survivability with a boosted self heal.
Yes, YesÖQQingÖthatís the stock answer from the elitist players! Bovine excrement! Name one attack that the Sorcerer possesses that hits for over 5k+ on a single attack? Better yet, name one that hits for over 5k+ overtime! Let me answer it for you, Sorcerers do not possess on attack that rival any AC in the game in causing damage. To make matters worse, for Lightning specced Sorcerers (and Sages mirror tree), we must root ourselves to fire off 2 of our major attacks and unless Alacrity is up, guess what, you will not get them off because some schmuck is going to interrupt your cast. The Shadow/Assassins have immunity from interruption, why not Sorcerers/Sages? They are a melee class; we on the other hand are cast dependent. This should be reversed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
Now if you are complaining of your casttime for Lightning and think it should get decreased let me give you a tissue to your issue. Buy full tionese (and this is for lightning), put all your PvP modes in their and add a regular WH armoring that does give the set bonus to the tionese. In this you can get the bonus that lower your force cost of FL and LS and the crits from Affliction give the 4-set to increase your alacrity making your cast-times faster. If you are a hybrid you can do this or just use the 2-set bonus of both pvp and pve.

All anyone had to do is look and you can solve your problems. We dont need a dmg increase cause all dps specs can still do crazy damage in pvp
Ah yes, another answer to the problem. Letís cheat the system but using PvE modable gear to gain something that wasnít supplied by the provided gear. No thank you, Iím not going add to the problem by using something that aids in breaking the system further. You want to do that, be my guest. Iíll stick with my 12% alacrity increase provided to me by my stock fully augmented EWH/WH gear thank you very much. BTW, stuff your tissue.

Quote: Originally Posted by veyl View Post
You have a pyrotech and a sniper and you can honestly say this with a straight face? From both a PvE and a PVP perspective, both of your other classes that you play out damage // have harder hitting abilities then all of the Sorcs abilities.
Yes they can. This is what I expect from an ďprofessional elitist PvPer.Ē

Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
This may sound obvious, but you realize that if you cut down the cast times of all these abilities by half, then you will do twice as much DPS as before, right? Perhaps this will make the class capable of doing some burst, but you just moved PVE lightning sorcs from 2000 to 3000 DPS easily.
Really? How does 1150 to 1250 DPS per tick channeled in 2.8(1.4) seconds, totaling 3200+ to 3600+, increase by 1000 DPS? It cannot happen unless you increase the damage itself with a buff. Those are the numbers I see from my Force Lightning in PvE. In PvP, Iím seeing 950 to 1210 when Iím channeling during that time.

The truth of the matter is decreasing the time spent rooted to cast Force Lightning means less time spent rooted increasing survivability. This is the intent of what I proposed. Never did I suggest, as some of the others contend, that a Sorcerer be given the ability to cast Force Lightning on the move or free cast.

I believe that those advocating no change and claiming this thread is nothing more than QQing did not read what I said, or they read into it what they wanted it to say blinded by their inherent belief that there is nothing wrong with the Sorcerer and any changes will threaten their monopoly on damage by their Snipers/PT/LOLsmashers (insert others as required).

Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
Yes I can say that because my Madness sorc is my main and ive outdpsd both of my other classes before in pvp and pve. Am I saying "im a high and mighty sorc!" No but its not impossible to outdps those other two classes. At the same time Pyrotech is all burst melee now in pvp you have the advantage of range and easily being able to run your abilities while moving (minus casting FL to proc wrath). Moreover, drop affliction to a group and hit them with deathfield your get some crowd control dps and then you can single out targets. Snipers, specifically Lethality ones like I run, are admit much better at their dot trees than Sorcs. They have longer dots and an aoe dot so yes they can sit back and pick ppl off.
Yes, Yes, I can lead the DPS board with 400 to 500k damage too! However, the telling story is in the details of Kills. Being in on 37 kills may seem wonderful until you look at it closely. When you have 4 or 5 killing blows and 0 to 2 solo kills then all that damage means absolutely nothing. It is fluff damage. Anyone can pad their numbers; however, at the end of the day unless that damage actually did something to make a difference, then it means nothing other than gaining comms for damage. If that is what trips your trigger, have at it. I would rather trade 400 to 500k damage for 200 to 300k with 15 killing blows and 5 to 10 solo kills. Then the damage means it did something. This is the intent of my suggestions. Right now what the Sorcerer/Sage brings to the table in PvP is garbage. These two ACs should be feared. Every MMO Iíve played in a casting AC was feared because it caused horrific damage. However, in SW, these two classes in their current form are mediocre at best. Having the highest damage in a WZ means crap if it did not produce results, period.

[QUOTE=Sosajoshua;5814925]Anyways what you are complaining about is Lightning spec which outside casting time there is no problem. Further more Lighting tree is full of abilities that raise your crit chance, lower the casting and cool down of abilities (Lightning Strikw and Chain Lightning), and increase the damage of moves by various percentages! Its the Pyrotech for Sorcs but you're complaining of what im saying? If casting is such a problem go back and do what I said. If you dont have a second Rakata set buy Tionese Force Master, put in pvp mods, and see that you will have quicker casting to get your moves off faster. The PvP ForceMaster only helps Madness and Hybrids anyways.

Now I know youíre full of it. The Lightning tree and its mirror are nothing but garbage in PvP. I have both ACs at 50 and I speak from experience. Because of this, I was forced, forced to spec hybrid because neither tree allowed me to produce. I spent more time respawning than I did causing damage. I hate running a hybrid character. But I have to in order to offer something to my team mates. I should not have to do this, no one should, but this is what BioWare has done. Matter of fact, this past Friday night, I ran into a Sorcerer fully specced Lightning. Guess what, I shut them down with my hybrid. Even when they hit me with their TB I barely felt the damage. Because Iím specíd with a 6 second lockdown in my interrupt, they were forced to flee or screamed for help because I would not allow them to get off their single big attack. This encounter inspired me to write pen this thread.

Again, your answer is to using items not meant for PvP thus creating an artificial increase where it skews the balance created by the developers. There are three answers to this problem, 1.) Stop playing the sorcerer/sage all together or 2.) Get rid of the classesí DPS trees completely. 3.) Fix the dman problem created by those who rather stare at their matrix and say, ďitís working as intended.Ē Iíve retired my Marauder from PvP after 1.4 because of the change to resolve, Iíll retire my Sorcerer from PvP too if they do not do the right thing and make this and the Sage ACs what they should truly be; glass cannons.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
You want better defenses for your Lightning, fine I agree 100%. But more damage? For what you have an insta-crit TB, CL that can crit, hit up to 5 targets, AND can created a second Arc to blast for my dps. You have an ability that lowers the cast of your Lightning Strikes, another that lowers CL cast and cooldown, and you have increased range on your abilities. Really everything is right there...you just want more for no reason.
My encounter with against a Lightning Specíd Sorcerer says otherwise. This player wasnít a bad either. They were part of a known PvP guild of repute and skill. All those procs or extras mean squat with you cannot get them off or they donít do enough damage to matter. Thatís the problem with the Sorcerer/Sage; their damage does not reach over 4k in a burst or over time unless you cheat the system by ignoring one stat for another or using some artificial means to increase damage. In other words, you cheat the system.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
So please continue to say that Pyros are better and blah blah blah. Realize its not impossible to beat them and find ways to do it instead of complaining about something you can fix.
You must really play against under skilled Pyros to make such an assertion. Iíll just leave it at that.

Quote: Originally Posted by veyl View Post
You are absolutely delusional to think Sorcs can out DPS a pyro or a sniper in PVP or PVE. (My point, which you ignored, is that sorcs are completely behind them. You are confusing me with the OP when it comes to Lightning cast on the move.) Also, bringing up Lightning in a PVP setting? I'm a fully min/maxed sorc and my Thundering Blast with it's 1.8 second cast hits a WH'd target with an affliction on it for a wopping 3700. My Marauder, with 1080 expertise annihilate // force scream // Smash // Ravage tick all hit for 4500+ and with the exception of ravage are Instant. My sniper's 1.5 aim shot + followthrough hits for a combined 7k at minimum. My assassins Maul crits for 4500+ again.. 1000 expertise. And lets not forget the execute range abilities that the harder hitting classes have. (I'm sure you've Takedown'd people for 4k at minimum.)

Even with following the TB with a CL proc, you are at most going to hit someone for 6k in a 2 second span, where as two GCDs for any other DPS in this game will hit for much, much harder.

I can top charts on my sorc too but that doesn't mean I can objectively sit back and say that "sorcs are fine". They aren't. They need damage increases because they are behind in PVP and are behind in PVE. The NON PADDED numbers prove it.
Let me correct you on one point. I never said, casting Lightning on the move. And to prove that, here is what I said:

ďReduce the case time for Lightning Strike, Chain Lightning, Force Lightning, and Crushing Darkness by half. This will mean a Sorcerer will require only 1.4 seconds to fire off Force Lightning without the Lightning Barrage proc. When that proc is up, it will reduce that even further per the proc's affect. What this means is we do not have to become a turret to use Force Lightning. Conversely, the existing procs for Chain Lightning, Lightning Strike, or Crushing Darkness require no changes either. The same would apply to the Sageís abilities too. What this means is a Sorcerer/Sage will spend less time standing still to use their abilities because of the improved mobility

I donít know where you and others are getting, ďcasting on the run from,Ē but it is not stated in what I said as I never said it. I wish you all would read what I say for what is written without including some hidden meaning or take it out of context. I donít beat around the bush. I say what I mean and mean what I say.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with it. Sosajoshua and the rest are the typical playrtd who want to keep the status quo so they are not threatened using their Snipers/PT/Smashers as the dominate ACs in damage vs. kills.

And to prove my point this:
Quote: Originally Posted by Sosajoshua View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post

I
Tl;DR The effects of the changes to improve one area may affect the other.
Despite my arguing before.......this.
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