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The "Other" pay to win


Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
02.05.2013 , 10:09 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I've seen 4 people in Tionese gear steamroll HMLI and 4 others in Black Hole gear fail on LR-5 consistently.

How is that not a perfect example of skill > gear?
That's not a good example. Skill + gear = profit. You can't say you can have one w/out the other. 8 people who are perfect at their classes cannot do something such as HM EC. There's only so much you can do before Math wins. At the same time, you could take 8 people in BiS 63's who don't know how to play their classes at all and wipe all the time on SM EV.

It's all about percentages. Could someone who plays half as well as someone else complete something if they have twice the stats (damage, health, stats, etc.)?

Mallorik's Avatar


Mallorik
02.05.2013 , 10:25 AM | #52
This has always bothered me and it is just another glaring example of how bioware still does not understand mmos.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.05.2013 , 10:48 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
The problem was that you could RE someone else's gear so people were just swapping recipes making all mods, enh, etc. available within the first couple weeks.
The problem is a bit more complicated than that. You already can't RE and learn the schematic from a piece of gear made by someone else. The problem is that, for mods, armoring, hilt/barrel, and enh, as soon as you place it in a piece of gear, it loses its previous identity and, as such, no longer remembers who made it. As such, rather than being a mod that was made by someone else, it becomes a mod without a creator, just like all of the world drops and stuff that drops from bosses.

The people complaining about their ability to maintain a monopoly would have their problems solved if BW could actually figure out how to preserve the creator information for a piece of gear that is currently inside of another piece of gear (I'm reasonably confident that the actual programmatic mechanism used is that a mod is destroyed when it enters a piece of moddable gear, which then gains the relevant "buff" in the form of the mod; when you remove the mod, it then simply creates a separate item in your inventory; essentially, creator information is never preserved because the mods don't actually exist within shells but rather exist to tell shells to create informational constructs within them). It would probably increase the storage requirements (by a lot, since they're having to track player information for every single mod slot), so it might not be something they're keen to do.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.05.2013 , 01:27 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
... Basically, the game requires both skill *and* gear to succeed at the top tier of content. ...
I do agree with this, I've just seen so many arguments that state that "such and such gear is required to beat x content"

When these statements are exaggerated (you need 58/61 to finish HM LI) it bothers me, as it means that someone thinks that skill DOESN'T matter and all you need is better gear.
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
One comment, three headshots. That's skill right there.


The game is laughably easy 95% of the time. It's harder in the last 5% only becase of lower enrage timers and heavier hits. Rinse and repeat until you get the mechanic down, gg. Skill requirement (in a game that emphasises gear, has medpacks and other buffs available at any point in time) is moderate at best.
Have you mastered HM EC? HM TfB? NM EC?

If the 95% laughably easy you're referring to is the leveling experience, surely you are absolutely correct. If you're saying that 95% of end-game operations is laughably easy, I disagree.

For example, tanking Kephess (off the top of my head) takes skill. It just does. It has very little to do with medpacks, enrage timers and heavier hits. It's about tank swaps, where to drop breath, when to hit your cooldowns, when to taunt.

It's a ton of fun if you're with people that are skilled. It's an awful grind with people that aren't.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
That's not a good example. Skill + gear = profit. You can't say you can have one w/out the other. ...
I don't disagree with the basic point you're making, but I still think that HM LI is in fact a great example.

It is possible to undergear mechanics-based content in TOR. It's practically impossible to underskill that same content.

Unskilled players cannot do HM LI even wearing full Dread Guard. It doesn't matter how much mitigation you have, how many cooldowns you pop, how much hp you have and how much +power your healer has. Miss too many incinerates without a cleanse? Tank dies, group wipes.

Another example would be HM EC. Give a skilled group of players Rakata and they will finish it. Give an unskilled group of Players full Dread Guard and they will wipe.

Skill will let you undergear content. Gear will only let you underskill EASY content.

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.05.2013 , 02:46 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
It is possible to undergear mechanics-based content in TOR. It's practically impossible to underskill that same content.
I will agree that it is impossible for a underskilled group, but many underskilled players are pulled through content.

The groups’ skill base is more important than individual players in end game content. Anyone that thinks NIM EC or HM TfB is a breeze; need to take a moment before their next operation to thank their entire group because you are an extremely lucky person to get with such great players. You may be just as good as or even better than any of them, but you are not going to carry average players through that content and still think it is easy. I know, I play with two very good groups and the difference between healing them and other groups is extreme. Players that know the mechanics know their class, their role, the rotation and enough about the other classes to know your capabilities makes the game both fun and at times extremely easy to play. Do the same content with 7 random pugs and you will quickly figure out you are not as great as you think you are.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
02.05.2013 , 05:03 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I don't disagree with the basic point you're making, but I still think that HM LI is in fact a great example.

It is possible to undergear mechanics-based content in TOR. It's practically impossible to underskill that same content.

Unskilled players cannot do HM LI even wearing full Dread Guard. It doesn't matter how much mitigation you have, how many cooldowns you pop, how much hp you have and how much +power your healer has. Miss too many incinerates without a cleanse? Tank dies, group wipes.

Another example would be HM EC. Give a skilled group of players Rakata and they will finish it. Give an unskilled group of Players full Dread Guard and they will wipe.

Skill will let you undergear content. Gear will only let you underskill EASY content.
It's just as fair to say, "Unskilled players cannot do HM LI even wearing full Dread Guard," as it is to say "Skilled players cannot do NiM EC wearing full Tionese gear." And HM EC was balanced around Rakata gear, that's why it was clearable in the first week. Remember when guilds who weren't in full BiS with full augments tried to do NiM EC on the PTS and got rolled? Yeah, that's cuz of gear. You can't tell me there was a skill problem.

Skill compensates for lower than average gear just as much as gear compensates for lower than average skill. If Tionese gives you about 60% as full Dreadguard you're telling me what someone who is 60% as skilled as the best skilled ToR players can't do HM LI in gulld BiS gear? I highly doubt that.

You're assuming that Tionese is considered 0-level gear so you're comparing it to 0-level skill (i.e. "Derp, Derp, I don't understand what aggro means."). That's not a fair comparison.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.05.2013 , 06:17 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
...

Skill compensates for lower than average gear just as much as gear compensates for lower than average skill. If Tionese gives you about 60% as full Dreadguard you're telling me what someone who is 60% as skilled as the best skilled ToR players can't do HM LI in gulld BiS gear? I highly doubt that.

....
Honestly, I suspect we're probably mostly on the same page but arguing semantics.

I'm not trying to say that gear isn't required and necessary. But my experience has shown me there are a vast number of players that try to overgear content instead of becoming better players. This only works to a point.

It's easy to overgear T1 HM FP, or overgear HM EV or overgear HM KP. Yet these don't have difficult mechanics. It is much harder to overgear HM LI. It can be done, but I've seen players in mostly Black Hole complain that "LR-5 and Sav Rak are too hard please nerf".

It's MUCH harder to overgear HM EC. At what level of gear would the amount of damage, healing and mitigation overcome the inability to tank swap on T/Z? How much armor and health would you need to survive defensive systems when someone aoe's the shield to death? How about failing to interrupt an overload in the minefield? Failing to move out of the purple circle from Breath?

I posit that there are boss encounters in EC and TfB that you simply cannot pass by substituting gear for skill. And yet, I've seen players thrilled to figure out ways to underman or undergear end-game raids because they have skill to make up the difference.

My argument is this: High gear with low skill is a dead-end. High skill with low gear isn't. Not only can you go farther, but you are more likely to obtain the gear you need for that content that has actual minimum gear requirements.

So while it is fair to say that both gear and skill are required, I firmly believe that of the two SKILL is more important.

I'd happily bring a talented and skilled player's undergeared alt through any operation, over someone who bought 63 gear at the vendor yet keeps missing interrupts, failing to move out of circles and doesn't know how to play their class properly.

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AshlaBoga
02.06.2013 , 03:09 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
It's MUCH harder to overgear HM EC. At what level of gear would the amount of damage, healing and mitigation overcome the inability to tank swap on T/Z? How much armor and health would you need to survive defensive systems when someone aoe's the shield to death? How about failing to interrupt an overload in the minefield? Failing to move out of the purple circle from Breath?

I posit that there are boss encounters in EC and TfB that you simply cannot pass by substituting gear for skill. And yet, I've seen players thrilled to figure out ways to underman or undergear end-game raids because they have skill to make up the difference.

My argument is this: High gear with low skill is a dead-end. High skill with low gear isn't. Not only can you go farther, but you are more likely to obtain the gear you need for that content that has actual minimum gear requirements.

So while it is fair to say that both gear and skill are required, I firmly believe that of the two SKILL is more important.
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sithheroes
02.06.2013 , 04:20 AM | #59
I like how swtor has done gearing so far over wow. I have made a good 50+ mil crafting lvl 61 and 63 mods for players across my server. While it may take some of the drive to run operations out, most people still run them to have fun and earn bragging rights. A majority of the people who I craft for still struggle to clear hm ec. This all just makes me more satisfied that I got the Warstalker title and get to reap extra rewards(credits) from my hard work. It also makes my guild less reliant on 1 player who won a token, and more on a crafter to continue playing the game, and since I'm an officer and enjoy playing with my guildies my recipes wont go on ice anytime soon.
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Tromador
02.06.2013 , 05:25 AM | #60
This old thing? Every MMO I played -

I am do raids and so I am get better stuff than you not raiding. And I am come rant on forum cos you who are not raiding get stuff I get.

Meh.

"I worked for this.." - It's not work, it's a game. If you think it's work, try 40 hours a week in my office.

Really. I enjoy group content and raiding, it's nice to get a bit of loot, of course but for me, the real reward is achieving the goals, in cooperation with friends working as a team.

Seriously if it bothers anyone that much, refuse to group with anyone who can't show the appropriate titles. Otherwise bugger off, live and let live, set your wounded egos to one side and just let's get on with the game.