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Jedi Knight Story and the Jedi Philosophy.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Jedi Knight Story and the Jedi Philosophy.

Phoenixbowman's Avatar


Phoenixbowman
02.02.2013 , 09:51 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
This. I think TOR decided to go with a very annoying interpretation, because they said "If we make the Sith all about Passion, we can have Jedi's be the total opposite"

And the Jedi order isn't against emotion. It teaches controlling them, thus the rules they have, because a force user who can't control their emotions is a dangerous individual. More dangerous than a pissed off smuggler/bounty hunter with a blaster.

Of course that's a little hard to convey in a game where they want to make every player equal. It's the difference between the Star Wars storyline and making Star Wars a game.
Orgus just told my character that ALL attachments are bad. That ALL emotion and passion ALWAYS destroys a person and a Jedi should NOT have any. I've already refuted that in my earlier posts and explained why it's bad to deny emotions entirely and completley ignore and push them away.

Attachments: Yes, there is sorrow at the end. BUT Orgus is ignoring everything that comes before the end. All of the goodness and joy which can come from attachments to friends and family and loved ones. Yes, to not have any attachments means to avoid the pain when one ends. BUT to deny attachment means missing out on all of the joyful times and goodness that they can bring. It also means being so very alone; not getting attached to means being saved the pain. But it also means missing out on the positives as well.

That would mean that the Jedi would not be moved to help anyone. It would be denying an integral part of who they are.

Phoenixbowman's Avatar


Phoenixbowman
02.02.2013 , 09:52 PM | #32
That Orgus Din fellow just dissed on passion and emotion and said they were always bad. and how attachment always leads to suffering. So we have one Jedi master saying that and we have other Lore which contradicts Orgus Din on that point.

Namely this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=579869

And both Obi-won and Yoda show emotion in the new Star Wars Trilogy. Obi-won showed care and concern for Luke in A New Hope. And in Return of the Jedi, was Luke really an emotionless robot? Did he not have ANY sort of attachment to his friends?

??????

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
02.02.2013 , 10:24 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Phoenixbowman View Post
That Orgus Din fellow just dissed on passion and emotion and said they were always bad. and how attachment always leads to suffering. So we have one Jedi master saying that and we have other Lore which contradicts Orgus Din on that point.

Namely this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=579869

And both Obi-won and Yoda show emotion in the new Star Wars Trilogy. Obi-won showed care and concern for Luke in A New Hope. And in Return of the Jedi, was Luke really an emotionless robot? Did he not have ANY sort of attachment to his friends?

??????
Well, Luke was the one to bring balance to the force.

In the movie sense, I think Jedi know there is emotions, they know they have them, they know they need to keep them under control, which is harder to do when you start making serious attachments and falling in love, and I think they all know they make attachments or else they wouldn't have their friends.

The game world of TOR takes it to the extreme, because it can, and because it wants to be the extreme other side of the Sith. Start having Jedi who act like Luke, and everyone will want to be Jedi and go "the Empire who?"

Phoenixbowman's Avatar


Phoenixbowman
02.02.2013 , 10:32 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Well, Luke was the one to bring balance to the force.

In the movie sense, I think Jedi know there is emotions, they know they have them, they know they need to keep them under control, which is harder to do when you start making serious attachments and falling in love, and I think they all know they make attachments or else they wouldn't have their friends.

The game world of TOR takes it to the extreme, because it can, and because it wants to be the extreme other side of the Sith. Start having Jedi who act like Luke, and everyone will want to be Jedi and go "the Empire who?"
That's a good point. It still doesn't settle with me well, as I explained in my earlier posts (about feeling emotions but still being able to act and being in control of one's actions.) In summary here:

"Feeling compassion does not force you to act irrationally. The Jedi, if they believe that compassion makes people act irrationally, are wrong. People control their actions. Emotions do not control a person or force them to do anything.

A person chooses to act a certain way. Simply feeling an emotion doesn't hijack your brain and make you do something irrational. The person feels compassion, or anything, and then they make the choice to act a certain way."

I don't want to give up on this Jedi character...but I can't look into a NPCs sad eyes and be an emotionles, passionless, robot. If my character was REALLY like Orgus said I should be like then my character would not want to help anyone. He wouldn't feel one twinge of anything for anyone in need. He would just show a cold, inhuman indifference. I'm not talking about being worn out. I mean 100% all the time cold to everyone and always.

NO! Jedi are meant to help people. With no compassion, mercy, kindness, love, any of that there is no drive and no will to do what Jedi are supposed to do and that to help those in need.

Phoenixbowman's Avatar


Phoenixbowman
02.02.2013 , 10:36 PM | #35
If my character can't show kindness or concern for someone who is in despair or pain then I'm just going to delete this character and roll another class. Because I can't turn a blind eye to those who are wounded and hurting.

And when Orgus said "NO EMOTIONS OR PASSIONS FOR YOU!" it sounded like he was saying to shut down my heart and be a robot. And I cannot do that; I can't play a character like that.

No emotion and no passion = no will and no drive. Not being human and denying part of who a person is. I've already been down that path in real life.

I refuse to play a character that has to be in the same state that I was for a good majority of my life. I am not going to relive those dark days through a character in this game.

Maybe it's not the best idea to a play a class that will always remind me of how bad it was then....

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
02.02.2013 , 11:29 PM | #36
You don't have to be an emotionless Jedi if you don't want to be. The game is set up to play your character in various different ways should you want to.

Phoenixbowman's Avatar


Phoenixbowman
02.02.2013 , 11:46 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
You don't have to be an emotionless Jedi if you don't want to be. The game is set up to play your character in various different ways should you want to.
That'd upset my character's Jedi Master but oh well.

at him (Orgus Din)

also

JacenHallis's Avatar


JacenHallis
02.02.2013 , 11:57 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Phoenixbowman View Post
That'd upset my character's Jedi Master but oh well.

at him (Orgus Din)

also
He's your master for about 7 levels or so. Don't worry about upsetting him.
Ruminara Ven
Passion, yet serenity.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
02.03.2013 , 01:03 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by SilencerSeven View Post
This seems to me like a fairly deliberate mis-reading of what's going on in those missions. The NPCs tell you flatly that compassion is problematic for the jedi because it impairs their judgment.
Well, the Jedi hologram who says this has a point. If you want to ensure justice, compassion (which the hologram elaborates as sorrow for the victim and outrage at the crime) is problematic. IRL it is the same with judges and cops. They too largely have to ignore their personal feelings about the crimes they encounter.

The hologram doesn't say: "compassion is always problematic", it says "true justice can not be driven by emotion." I think this translates more like: "When a Jedi tries to protect justice (which happens often), he has to ignore/control his emotions."

I don't approve of all the Jedi teachings about emotions, but this particular part does make sense.

Edit: By the way, Orgus Din is also emotional from time to time. ("Blast this council meetings!" for example.) I haven't encountered the part where he said that about emotion, when was it?
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
02.03.2013 , 01:22 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Phoenixbowman View Post
If my character can't show kindness or concern for someone who is in despair or pain then I'm just going to delete this character and roll another class. Because I can't turn a blind eye to those who are wounded and hurting.

And when Orgus said "NO EMOTIONS OR PASSIONS FOR YOU!" it sounded like he was saying to shut down my heart and be a robot. And I cannot do that; I can't play a character like that.

No emotion and no passion = no will and no drive. Not being human and denying part of who a person is. I've already been down that path in real life.

I refuse to play a character that has to be in the same state that I was for a good majority of my life. I am not going to relive those dark days through a character in this game.

Maybe it's not the best idea to a play a class that will always remind me of how bad it was then....
If you're reliving those days from the game, you're looking far to into it, especially since you get plenty of emotional response choices as a Jedi.

And never does it say "act like a robot"

It really comes down to this...

Jedi: We're living nukes. We must control ourselves for fear of going off.

Sith: We're living nukes! HELL YEAH! Take what we want when we want!

Then your choices in game can allow you to go however you want.