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Attributes per class / class balance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Attributes per class / class balance

PerinnAybara's Avatar


PerinnAybara
01.27.2013 , 09:52 AM | #11
Pretty sure everything in that link is constructive. Also should give you who hasn't played a mercenary/commando a better idea about the class. Not just about mercenaries, but also sorcerer and healers.

It's "On the topic" at hand.

As for not contributing anything to this thread... hrm. I wonder whof irst stated that assassins don't necessarily get a pull? Or how Vanguards have enough damage (which even under pressure isn't deterred) that it adds to their utility?

Is that not considered adding to the thread? Sheesh, at least Empereror Palpatine was charming.
Character: Mathrim Cauthon, 50 Mercenary on Prophecy of the Five

MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
01.27.2013 , 10:03 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by PerinnAybara View Post
Pretty sure everything in that link is constructive. Also should give you who hasn't played a mercenary/commando a better idea about the class. Not just about mercenaries, but also sorcerer and healers.

It's "On the topic" at hand.
The link you provided is a buff comm/merc healers. If you have read the first thread the table is foccussed on dps specs. The title is generic enough for others to accommodate such tables for healers and tanks if they wish so. Also I've started without saying anything about nerf smash buff mercs. I am only trying to present some results based on my experience and the other contributors in a numerical fashion. If you fail to understand the clarity that quantification presents over descripitive analysis I am afraid we will never be able to agree.

Quote:
As for not contributing anything to this thread... hrm. I wonder whof irst stated that assassins don't necessarily get a pull? Or how Vanguards have enough damage (which even under pressure isn't deterred) that it adds to their utility?

Is that not considered adding to the thread?
Yes this is adding to the thread. Such clarifications are constructive and fine, especially when they come from people that actually play the class that is being commented on.

A further constructive feedback is if you have the experience as you claim to create a similar numerical table for comms/mercs and added here.

Quote:
Sheesh, at least Empereror Palpatine was charming.
Not sure you are implying here. But mocking, trolling and silly nonsense will be dealt with a /ignore from my side. Constructive criticism and contributions exactly the opposite and because I think you have partly offered something in this thread is the reason that I am replying.

warstory's Avatar


warstory
01.27.2013 , 10:36 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by MusicRider View Post
So I will make a start for sages/sorcs. I consider three dps specs: a) full balance/madness, b) full telekinetics/lightning, c) hybrid

Sages/Sorcerers

Full balance/madness
  • mobility: conditionally and weak, 0.5
  • burst: medium, 0.5
  • range: yes
  • invulnerability: no
  • escape: yes (force speed) but it's the easiest to counter. 0.5
  • utility: yes.
Total: 3.5/6

Full telekinetics/lighning
  • mobility: dare say non-existent. Weaken mind/affliction project/shock are/can be weaker as tk/light. Most importantly due to the casting of disturbance/lightning strike and turbolence/thunder blast vs the channelling of tk throw/force lightning and instant force in balance/death field, things are even worse.
  • burst: medium. 0.5 (can be good fairly decent with mental alacrity/polarity shift)
  • range: yes
  • invulnerabilty: low/medium. bubble stun extends life expectancy from 3-6 secs depending on the lockout duration of bubble. 0.25
  • escape: much better than balance. force speed/bubble stun/rooted knockback are good tools. Let's say 0.75.
  • utility: most comes from base advanced class which is already fairly good. With bubble stun it jumps to above excellent levels. Might not be able to maintain bubble stuns on all your team as dps but force management in tk/light certainly allows to apply it selectively which in some cases is even better. Considering that this ability has made having a bubble stunner in a team a necessity I give the beyond max value of 1.25.
Total: 3.75/6

Hybrid
  • mobility: inherited from balance, 0.5
  • burst: slightly lower than full specs, 0.25
  • range: yes
  • invulnerabilty: low/medium, inherited from tk/lightning 0.25
  • escape: inherited from tk/ligh, 0.75.
  • utility: inherited from tk/light, 1.25
Total: 4/6

It might seem that tk/light is better than balance. However due to the general importance of mobility which for sages/sorcs is even more so, tk/light is considered as the weakest build of all for pvp.

The most viable is a hybrid built with decent survivability (invulnerability + escape), mobility and utility with a little bit lower burst when crits.

For people that try to avoid the bubble stun builds full balance or a hybrid built without it are still fairly viable options.

Might extend when I have more time for healing specs although this table was more for dps classes/specs.
sorry had to jump in here ....
balanced as lots of utility sever force is like sniper leg shot works when resolve is full
instant whirlwind 8 sec stun
force stun
force wave

burst...once you put on sever force, mind crush and weaken mind, try force in balnced, a proc disturbance and a double project.

as for lightning your are basing our burst on a skill that we get access to once every 2 mins for 10 secs? is that a joke?

glocklB's Avatar


glocklB
01.27.2013 , 11:57 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by MusicRider View Post
So I will make a start for sages/sorcs. I consider three dps specs: a) full balance/madness, b) full telekinetics/lightning, c) hybrid

Sages/Sorcerers

Full balance/madness
  • mobility: conditionally and weak, 0.5
  • burst: medium, 0.5
  • range: yes
  • invulnerability: no
  • escape: yes (force speed) but it's the easiest to counter. 0.5
  • utility: yes.
Total: 3.5/6

Full telekinetics/lighning
  • mobility: dare say non-existent. Weaken mind/affliction project/shock are/can be weaker as tk/light. Most importantly due to the casting of disturbance/lightning strike and turbolence/thunder blast vs the channelling of tk throw/force lightning and instant force in balance/death field, things are even worse.
  • burst: medium. 0.5 (can be good fairly decent with mental alacrity/polarity shift)
  • range: yes
  • invulnerabilty: low/medium. bubble stun extends life expectancy from 3-6 secs depending on the lockout duration of bubble. 0.25
  • escape: much better than balance. force speed/bubble stun/rooted knockback are good tools. Let's say 0.75.
  • utility: most comes from base advanced class which is already fairly good. With bubble stun it jumps to above excellent levels. Might not be able to maintain bubble stuns on all your team as dps but force management in tk/light certainly allows to apply it selectively which in some cases is even better. Considering that this ability has made having a bubble stunner in a team a necessity I give the beyond max value of 1.25.
Total: 3.75/6

Hybrid
  • mobility: inherited from balance, 0.5
  • burst: slightly lower than full specs, 0.25
  • range: yes
  • invulnerabilty: low/medium, inherited from tk/lightning 0.25
  • escape: inherited from tk/ligh, 0.75.
  • utility: inherited from tk/light, 1.25
Total: 4/6

It might seem that tk/light is better than balance. However due to the general importance of mobility which for sages/sorcs is even more so, tk/light is considered as the weakest build of all for pvp.

The most viable is a hybrid built with decent survivability (invulnerability + escape), mobility and utility with a little bit lower burst when crits.

For people that try to avoid the bubble stun builds full balance or a hybrid built without it are still fairly viable options.

Might extend when I have more time for healing specs although this table was more for dps classes/specs.
Tell me, what is this table for, if the least viable sorc spec has better value then madness? I mean, you said that mobility has higher value then anything, but isn't it should be taken into account? Total value is supposed to show real value of the class/spec as far as i understand your intention. If you will fix invulnerability of vanguards to 0.5 (which is actually equal to mercs) then lightning sorc will be better then vanguard due to this evaluation

Thank you for attempt to arrange all this stuff, though. I hope this will succeed eventually, but for now it's really far from it in my opinion.
<Reckoning> The Red Eclipse - Marine, sorcerer
<Nostrum Dolus> Tomb of Freedon Nadd - Walsix, sage

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
01.27.2013 , 12:07 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by warstory View Post
burst...once you put on sever force, mind crush and weaken mind, try force in balnced, a proc disturbance and a double project.

as for lightning your are basing our burst on a skill that we get access to once every 2 mins for 10 secs? is that a joke?
I don't think you can throw a procced Disturbance once you've used Mind Crush since they share the same proc. If you want an instant Disturbance, you'll have to use a Telekinetic Throw, which will cause Mind Crush's DoT to not last for long and make the rotation way less bursty.

As for Lightning, like you, I don't think that Polarity Shift has a great effect on Sorcerers' burst. I think that the best burst a Lightning Sorcerer can do is Thunder Blast followed by an instant Chain Lightning and a 1.5s Force Lightning (and then try to proc a double Shock), which doesn't necessary need any kind of alacrity buffs.

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
01.27.2013 , 12:20 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by MusicRider View Post
Thanks for your reply.
I am happy to update it obciously as I am not playing a trooper/bounty. But why do you think comms/mercs are considerer easy targets contrary to vans/pts? I am sincerely asking not trying to poke you or anything.
Lack of mobility, defenses, their dps is easily shut down by any one of numerous ways, and it takes a few GCDs to get the damage actually up and running to begin with.

VG/PT better mobility, instant casts, takes far few GCDs to get their damage out, and getting the procs for their heavy hitters are far more reliable than the commando/merc versions.

warstory's Avatar


warstory
01.27.2013 , 01:05 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
I don't think you can throw a procced Disturbance once you've used Mind Crush since they share the same proc. If you want an instant Disturbance, you'll have to use a Telekinetic Throw, which will cause Mind Crush's DoT to not last for long and make the rotation way less bursty.

As for Lightning, like you, I don't think that Polarity Shift has a great effect on Sorcerers' burst. I think that the best burst a Lightning Sorcerer can do is Thunder Blast followed by an instant Chain Lightning and a 1.5s Force Lightning (and then try to proc a double Shock), which doesn't necessary need any kind of alacrity buffs.
Set up the proc before hand then hard cast mind crush and burst away
But also u should be able to get both proc if u throw 2 throw I between your rotation

MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
01.28.2013 , 03:44 AM | #18
Thanks all for the contributions. Will update/reply when I have a bit more time.

glocklB's Avatar


glocklB
01.28.2013 , 04:16 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by warstory View Post
Set up the proc before hand then hard cast mind crush and burst away
But also u should be able to get both proc if u throw 2 throw I between your rotation
i wonder how will you hard cast mind crush if you have a proc active?
<Reckoning> The Red Eclipse - Marine, sorcerer
<Nostrum Dolus> Tomb of Freedon Nadd - Walsix, sage

MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
01.28.2013 , 04:50 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by warstory View Post
sorry had to jump in here ....
Sure. Feel free to do so.

Quote:
balanced as lots of utility sever force is like sniper leg shot works when resolve is full
instant whirlwind 8 sec stun
force stun
force wave
Whirlwind is an 8 mezz and not an 8 sec stun. But, I am not sure I am getting the point here. None said otherwise about the utility of balance or sages in general.

Quote:
burst...once you put on sever force, mind crush and weaken mind, try force in balnced, a proc disturbance and a double project.
Burst would be 6.5k smash, followed by 5k force scream (the only one abiding to normal crit), followed by a 5k vicious throw (pretty common due to 15% buff). This is 16.5K in 2 gcd = 3 secs. According to your rotation by then you will have sever, force, mind crush and weaken mind on the target doing what? Also why would you put mind crush and then force in balance, you even have weaken mind in between, i.e. you are wasting ticks of mind crush that go unproced. Also why would you cast mind crush which is a 2 sec cast, but use the proc for disturbance which is 1.5?

Quote:
as for lightning your are basing our burst on a skill that we get access to once every 2 mins for 10 secs? is that a joke?
No it's not a joke if you play tk/lightning where you have 2s turbulence and 1.5s disturbances to cast, which also become uninterruptible.