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Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
01.25.2013 , 06:16 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Go to Yavin? Seriously? Not only will she have to fight through the hordes of Massassi, but she will have to face Exar Kun at the center of his power. I don't see Traya leaving Malachor. She isn't the type of persona that goes about killing whoever she wants. She's a manipulator. She'll send her servants to do it.

Now on the topic of Sion. Are we going to assume that he can come back to life after losing his head? That would be really really lame. And if he could come back, the best he could do is come back as a severed head. Now how useful is he going to be as a severed head?

Or what about the Massassi ripping him to shreds? I have never heard of Sion coming back from the loss of limbs (or his head).
About the beheaded thing, Sion was said to have cuts and fractures in every part of his body, including his neck, I doubt he can even be beheaded, if anything hel get cut, but his head wont be severed. Now beating him, or capturing him would be a completely different story.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.25.2013 , 06:19 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
A very interesting and powerful scenario. But point out some flaws:

  • It will take Ulic several days if not a week to get to Coruscant (provided he is on Yavin 4) while it will take a little less for Mandalore to get there, and only a few hours of the Koros fleet to get there. So their going to arrive in dribs and drabs (more so if a gravity well generator is involved) making for it easier for Xizor to destroy them with a constant influx of Black Sun forces who will pour in from across the galaxy. Either that or they will be forced to group together first, giving Xizor ample time to prepare.

  • Traya will foresee Kun's attack on Malachor, and will foresee her defeat. She will therefore escape Malachor with her fleet on the Ravager. Kun will then have to navigate the hazards of Malachor V (landing an army of Massasi warriors in ancient, dodgy vessels on a planet coated in electrical storms and with a strong gravity pull will be difficult) and fight his way through the academy only to find Traya is not there. He will likely search the place top to bottom giving the inhabitants plenty of opportunities to whittle away at this Brotherhood and set traps for the Massassi. Hey they could even sabotage the ships, leaving them trapped on Malachor. (But the ships would probably crash anyway :P) His warriors will probably all die on Malachor, but I'm sure Kun can use his various powers to conjure up some sort of serviceable vessel to get him off the planet.

  • The majority of Kun's fleet - the Tetan Navy - is based in the Deep Core, several weeks away from Yavin 4 and Malachor V. He cannot rely on their assistance to invade Malachor V and will have to solely dedicate them to attacking Coruscant. The Mandalorian Fleet will be split between invading Malachor, protecting Mandalore and protecting Yavin 4. Traya will therefore be able to break through any Mandalorian blockade of Yavin 4 fairly easily. And set up an ambush. For example she could leave her fleet lying in wait, invade his Temple (all the Massassi warriors are trapped on Malachor V) and trash anything of value, and set up an ambush there with 4 other Sith Lords, including Sion the Immortal. When Kun returns from his failed mission his small fleet is ambushed by the full forces of Traya's armada AKA everything. If Kun manages to escape to the surface he'll find himself subject either to orbital bombardment (and unable to protect himself through rituals due to the desecration of his temple) or ambushed by Traya and her most powerful Sith.
1. Empress Teta is right next to Coruscant, and Ulic will be commanding the Krath. What would be the point of sitting Ulic at Yavin when his forces are light years away? He will be commanding the Krath, and will attack from Empress Teta. The speed at which they get to Coruscant will not allow Xizor to prepare anything besides rallying his mercs.

2. Exar Kun and the Massassi Warriors will be empowered by Malachor's Dark energies so the academy will be of little difficulty. Landing will be the hardest part, traversing the planet won't be incredibly difficult.

3. By the time Kun is done with the Academy, Ulic will have defeated Xizor. Kun will sense Traya on Yavin (using his advanced Force senses), which will make him contact Ulic (using telepathy, which he has done), and have him come pick him up. Then the entire Mandalorian and Krath War Fleet will attack Yavin. Now Traya is the one susceptible to bombardment.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.25.2013 , 06:29 PM | #33
I think the flaws won't stop Exar Kun.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

It will take Ulic several days if not a week to get to Coruscant (provided he is on Yavin 4) while it will take a little less for Mandalore to get there, and only a few hours of the Koros fleet to get there. So their going to arrive in dribs and drabs (more so if a gravity well generator is involved) making for it easier for Xizor to destroy them with a constant influx of Black Sun forces who will pour in from across the galaxy. Either that or they will be forced to group together first, giving Xizor ample time to prepare.
Was Ulic ever on Yavin 4? I would assume he is in the Empress Teta system with the Krath fleet and some parts of the Mandalorian fleet. So going for Coruscant won't take long.

Quote:
Traya will foresee Kun's attack on Malachor, and will foresee her defeat. She will therefore escape Malachor with her fleet on the Ravager. Kun will then have to navigate the hazards of Malachor V (landing an army of Massasi warriors in ancient, dodgy vessels on a planet coated in electrical storms and with a strong gravity pull will be difficult) and fight his way through the academy only to find Traya is not there. He will likely search the place top to bottom giving the inhabitants plenty of opportunities to whittle away at this Brotherhood and set traps for the Massassi. Hey they could even sabotage the ships, leaving them trapped on Malachor. (But the ships would probably crash anyway :P) His warriors will probably all die on Malachor, but I'm sure Kun can use his various powers to conjure up some sort of serviceable vessel to get him off the planet.
Leaving Kun an academy behind will backfire. Kun will take the Sith teachings he can get there and use them. This will only make hin stronger.
Btw. Kun will sese when Traya has left.

Quote:
[*]The majority of Kun's fleet - the Tetan Navy - is based in the Deep Core, several weeks away from Yavin 4 and Malachor V. He cannot rely on their assistance to invade Malachor V and will have to solely dedicate them to attacking Coruscant. The Mandalorian Fleet will be split between invading Malachor, protecting Mandalore and protecting Yavin 4. Traya will therefore be able to break through any Mandalorian blockade of Yavin 4 fairly easily. And set up an ambush. For example she could leave her fleet lying in wait, invade his Temple (all the Massassi warriors are trapped on Malachor V) and trash anything of value, and set up an ambush there with 4 other Sith Lords, including Sion the Immortal. When Kun returns from his failed mission his small fleet is ambushed by the full forces of Traya's armada AKA everything. If Kun manages to escape to the surface he'll find himself subject either to orbital bombardment (and unable to protect himself through rituals due to the desecration of his temple) or ambushed by Traya and her most powerful Sith.
Kun will know where Traya is and will go to find her. If she is on her ship, he will land there, if she is on the surface, he will go there. Then he will use his amulet to knock out the other Sith, Force-persuade Sion into dying within a very short time and then kill Traya.

(Btw. I agree that, Revan and Traya are better strategists than Kun on the long term. The Republic would have outlasted Kun/would have sprung back into existance after his Empire crumbled. But in the Kaggath, it doesn't matter because he can win on the short term.)
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.25.2013 , 06:52 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
1. Empress Teta is right next to Coruscant, and Ulic will be commanding the Krath. What would be the point of sitting Ulic at Yavin when his forces are light years away? He will be commanding the Krath, and will attack from Empress Teta. The speed at which they get to Coruscant will not allow Xizor to prepare anything besides rallying his mercs.

2. Exar Kun and the Massassi Warriors will be empowered by Malachor's Dark energies so the academy will be of little difficulty. Landing will be the hardest part, traversing the planet won't be incredibly difficult.

3. By the time Kun is done with the Academy, Ulic will have defeated Xizor. Kun will sense Traya on Yavin (using his advanced Force senses), which will make him contact Ulic (using telepathy, which he has done), and have him come pick him up. Then the entire Mandalorian and Krath War Fleet will attack Yavin. Now Traya is the one susceptible to bombardment.
Your right with that first point, Ulic was sort of the military leader of the Krath, so he would likely lead a quick and brutal assault on Coruscant from Empress Teta. But even a few hours would be enough for Xizor to escape Coruscant, the Virago would also be fast enough to escape during the battle. He could then retreat to Mustafar (the Black Sun HQ we saw in TCW) and hunker down their. Ulic would then have to chase him there and face an organised armarda, as well as a possible incident with a gravity well generator en-route So Xizor will still be a threat while Kun is dealing with the academy.

Concerning Force sense, let us not forget that Traya was skilled in the use of Force concealment. She could shield herself from the senses themselves but also in the way Sidious shielded his presence from the Jedi Order. This is how she managed to maintain her disguise as Kreia. It fooled the Masters of the Jedi High Council, even when she was right in front of them, even when she revealed her identity their vision of her was clouded, so she could likely do the same with Kun, especially over such a distance. And you can't just pick someone up from the most hazardous planet in the galaxy. Ulic would just crash down with him. But I think Kun is capable of escaping, perhaps on a Basilisk droid? But he would still be forced to leave his warriors behind.

Oh and can you remind me again of where Kun displayed his power in Force sense, I remember you said in Kun's prievous Kaggath but I have forgotten. :P

And Maaurin, what is this amulet of death you speak of? And I think Traya would destroy the teachings on Malachor, or maybe even destroy the academy itself - she would want to give Kun no reason to linger.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
01.25.2013 , 06:57 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
And that brings up a previous point Beni made. The combatants can't just go anywhere. (Unless Beni wants to clear that up a bit more)
Agreed, considering Xizor actually has his own personal Starfighter that has a Hyperdrive, and Guri has her own personal starship...

In all honesty, Xizor's chances primarily depend on how much of a threat Exar Kun and Traya would consider him to be.

I really think Exar Kun has some raw advantages in terms of numbers and fighting strength, but at the same time I think Sion could take down Ulic and Mandalore.

Both Xizor and Kun have Mandos so that would be a wash (assuming some mandos don't recognize that mandalore as legit)...

Really, Xizor's palace didn't have the capability to handle space battles and quite frankly it didn't need to, because that was the perview of Coruscant's planetary defenses...

As far as Traya's Academy, I don't see how Exar Kun could even damage it with his fleet, let alone destroy it, barring a super weapon. It survived Malachor V being ripped apart back at the end of the Mandalorian Wars, remember.

So Xizor's survival is entirely dependent on whether or not Traya and Exar Kun consider him to be a serious threat.

Analysis:
Exar Kun: Well in a typical Sith Lord fashion, Exar Kun would likely consider Xizor to be a laughable threat, Kun's flaw is his overconfidence, so he may go gunning for Traya first, thinking he can eliminate Xizor at his leisure. Unlike Revan, he lacks the patience to wait out his opponent and let his opponent make the mistake of launching a stupid attack, so it stands to reason that Exar Kun would try to invade Traya's Academy.

Traya: She would consider Xixor to be a key player in this, however if you look at her behavior patterns, she's more likely to go gunning for Exar Kun first (considering her hatred of the Force), and Kun isn't giving her proper respect as a Dark Lord of the Sith... While her patience isn't infinite, she has more patience than Exar Kun and thus she'd lure Exar Kun to where she has the home court advantage, Ravenger and the other hulks at her disposal wouldn't likely be enough to take down Exar Kun's forces.

Xizor: He's going to make sure he has good defenses, and isn't likely to act before he is ready. While he's shown overconfidence in the past, he isn't as likely to make that mistake like he did concerning Luke Skywalker, with the forces that both Traya and Kun command, it's plainly obvious that he needs to take them very seriously. He also isn't going to whimsically dispatch Guri to eliminate people, it's a waste of time and likely going to send Guri to the scrap heap.

Scenario:

What I see is Exar Kun blockading Malachor V and losing patience and in his overconfidence, he launches an all out invasion of the planet. As his troops get eliminated by various examples of the local wildlife, they then end up having to take on a bunch of sith assassins, troopers, Dark Jedi, other force wielding sith, etc. This would likely whittle down the numbers on both sides.

I see Sion easily dispatching Ulic and Mandalore... I'm just not sure if Exar Kun will have the presense of mind to try to talk Sion into giving up. Remember, the Exile didn't Force Persuade Sion to give up, the Exile persuaded Sion purely with words. I really don't know who'd win this fight, while Exar Kun is the better duelist, the fact Sion just won't die, means that he likely would be able to outlast Kun. So it's hard to say.

If Kun wins then he has to take on Traya, Kun is the better saber wielder, but I think Traya might be the better force wielder. Also she has some stealth abilities that I'm not sure Exar Kun has or at least not as developed as Traya's were.

I kinda think Traya will defeat Kun in this purely due to Kun's impatience causes him to confront Traya on her own turf.

Now depending on whether or not Xizor's intelligence has figured out where this huge confrontation has taken place, he'd probably have forces show up while Exar Kun's forces are on Malachor V, and wait for the victor to emerge.

Now if he manages to successfully keep the victor's forces from leaving the planet and then mine the surrounding space, he may actually prove the victor.

If he fails at this, it turns into a possible confrontation on Xizor's home ground, but at that point I believe Xixor could win (barring thermal detonators aren't in the mix). Xizor would probably opt for Sion to be vaporized since not even immortal sith could come back from being reduced to particulate matter (or send Sion's rebuilding body into the heart of the Coruscant Sun).

Xizor would probably win this if the Sith decide to go kill each other first, if Exar Kun decides to go hunting for Xizor first though, Xizor is in serious trouble.

I consider the most likely winners to be either Traya or Xizor, it all boils down to which individual Exar Kun decides to attack first.

Additional Note:
While Exar Kun had a Sith Amulet, I'm not sure it would be effective on Sith Assassins that get more powerful, the stronger their adversary is, especially on Traya's home turf. I also don't think he could force persuade Sion into committing suicide out of hand...

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.25.2013 , 07:07 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And Maaurin, what is this amulet of death you speak of? And I think Traya would destroy the teachings on Malachor, or maybe even destroy the academy itself - she would want to give Kun no reason to linger.
It is one part of a two-part amulet, Ulic has the other half. I'm not sure if he got it from Freedon Nadds tomb or on Yavin 4, but it is a powerful Sith artifact. He used it to kill the SIth worm the Massassi tried to sacrifice him to, then to destroy the spirit of Freedon Nadd. On Koros, he knocked out Aleema Keto with it before he engaged Ulic. During their fight it reacted with Ulic's amulet and the Sith ghosts appeared.

(Kun's amulet is worn at the hand, while Ulic's is worn around th neck.)

PS: I really doubt Traya would destroy the teachings. It's not in her character to prevent her enemies from learning. She might try to use them for manipulation somehow.

Quote:
While Exar Kun had a Sith Amulet, I'm not sure it would be effective on Sith Assassins that get more powerful, the stronger their adversary is, especially on Traya's home turf. I also don't think he could force persuade Sion into committing suicide out of hand...
Maybe not against the Sith assassins, but I think it would knock out the three Sith lords from Kotor II (Freedon Nadds tomb). They don't seem that much more powerful than the Ketos.

The Force persuade things is what, if I understood the comic correctly, what he used against Odan-Urr. He persued him with a few sentences that the Jedi were lost and Odan-Urr was old and dead. Then Odan-Urr died. Sion is also old and dead, not as old as Odan-Urr, but definitly more dead.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.25.2013 , 07:13 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Oh and can you remind me again of where Kun displayed his power in Force sense, I remember you said in Kun's prievous Kaggath but I have forgotten. :P

He used his Force Sense to locate Ulic Qel-Droma from across the galaxy, when Ulic was with Krath. This was before they became Sith Lords, his powers were enhanced even more when he became a Sith Lord.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.25.2013 , 07:18 PM | #38
Gar does bring up an interesting point, Xizor could be seen as the underdog here given he isn't an all powerful Sith Lord. So while Traya and Kun are duking it out, Xizor could assemble what is needed, outfit his ships and troops with the right weapons/armor and the like. He could then wait, until the winner is decided and then wipe out the remains of whoever won.

Oh I also thought of something, Xizor could infact buy a shield generator for his palace making it immune to orbital bombardments.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
01.25.2013 , 07:19 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
It is one part of a two-part amulet, Ulic has the other half. I'm not sure if he got it from Freedon Nadds tomb or on Yavin 4, but it is a powerful Sith artifact. He used it to kill the SIth worm the Massassi tried to sacrifice him to, then to destroy the spirit of Freedon Nadd. On Koros, he knocked out Aleema Keto with it before he engaged Ulic. During their fight it reacted with Ulic's amulet and the Sith ghosts appeared.

(Kun's amulet is worn at the hand, while Ulic's is worn around th neck.)

PS: I really doubt Traya would destroy the teachings. It's not in her character to prevent her enemies from learning. She might try to use them for manipulation somehow.
The amulet would have its limits though, the idea that it could take down other Dark Lords of the Sith is rather questionable...

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Maybe not against the Sith assassins, but I think it would knock out the three Sith lords from Kotor II (Freedon Nadds tomb). They don't seem that much more powerful than the Ketos.
If it wouldn't work on the Assassins, it stands to reason it would not work on Traya and Sion.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
The Force persuade things is what, if I understood the comic correctly, what he used against Odan-Urr. He persued him with a few sentences that the Jedi were lost and Odan-Urr was old and dead. Then Odan-Urr died. Sion is also old and dead, not as old as Odan-Urr, but definitly more dead.
If I remember correctly Exar Kun murdered Odan-Urr, he didn't force persuade him into dieing, he did persuade younger Jedi of this idea after Odan-Urr was dead...

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.25.2013 , 07:20 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
*snip*
Except Kun can attack Coruscant and Malachor simultaneously. And Empress Teta is right next to Coruscant, so Xizor's gonna have to get moving if he wants to escape. Which is possible, but it doesn't exactly mean much. Kun will let Xizor if he escapes, then turn his attention to the inferior Sith Lord: Darth Traya.

And Kun would beat Traya. It doesn't matter if she's on Malachor. Exar Kun can draw on Malachor's energies just like Traya. Exar Kun is superior to Traya. The entire Jedi Order feared him. He defeated some of the most powerful Jedi of his time with ease.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus