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Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
01.31.2013 , 05:27 PM | #171
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
First is Traya's element of surprise. Or the fact that she has none. Exar Kun's Force sense can be used for more than just finding Traya. He can use it to find the other Sith in Traya's army. This pretty much allows him to locate Traya's army no matter where it is. Which means Traya won't be ambushing him at any time unless she personally does it (or she cuts her own forces off from The Force, but that would be stupid of her).
Except Kreia specialized in hiding her presence, I'm not sure Exar Kun can track Darth Traya, directly same goes for her assassins.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]
Second is Xizor's ability to buy things (correct me if I'm wrong). I think this area is being overestimated. Not his ability to purchase stuff, because let's face it, he could buy whatever he wants. What I'm talking about is how quickly he can get this stuff. He can't just buy something and it instantly be there next to him like in a video game (not that that was implied). This strategy takes time. He needs to set up deals, make transactions, and then transport the stuff where he needs it. This takes time, and unless he buys everything on Coruscant, he doesn't have the time to get everything. But by all means, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. The Black Market isn't my forte.
That is a fair point, however the Coruscant in Exar Kun's time was nowhere near the same as it was in the time that Xizor was running Black Sun. Even if we disregard the defense platforms, Coruscant actually had defenses capable of repelling fleets. Furthermore, Xizor actually had a fleet near Coruscant, and he often used smaller ships, and lots and lots of starfighters with secondary weapons capable of doing damage to capital ships.

Xizor could probably appeal to the masses so that everyone whom has a ship (that is armed) would be trying to fight the fleet. To make matters worse for Ulic, Xizor's starfighters were highly advanced even when compared to military-grade snub-fighters. Even putting Ulic's fighters on par technologically with starfighters at the time of the Battle at Yavin (where Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star), Xizor's fighters would still have a big advantage from a technology standpoint (and his personal starfighter was even more advanced than that).

So if Xizor can establish space superiority (where starfighters are concerned), he's likely to win this fight even if his capital ships are inferior to the ships Ulic is using.

If you have ever played Star Wars: Rebellion, you'd understand what I mean. The Imperials early on in that game could routinely pound rebel ships into the ground, unless you had starfighters in the mix. If both sides had an even number of starfighters, as long as there weren't lancer frigates in play, chances are the rebels would have starfighters surviving. If there were enough starfighters left for the rebels they could destroy several capital ships.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post

Third is the Battle of Coruscant (if there will be a battle). First, are we using the fleet at the Battle over Coruscant (the one where Xizor died) as an accurate judgment of his forces? If so, then he is already outnumbered. Ulic already has 300 ships that were stolen from the Foerost shipyards. Add in the Krath fleet and Xizor's fleet is heavily outnumbered. He will also have to deal with the swarms of Chaos Fighters and the addition of Basilisk War Droids (Supremacy-class ships carried Basilisks). Plus if he tries to escape in Virago during the battle, it will be halted by the tractor beams of the Supremacys and blown to bits. Xizor would have to run before the battle begins (if there is a battle).
Those were probably the only ships Xizor had in the area due to the Empire, without the Imperial Navy being in play, odds are quite good that there would be more of Xizor's ships present.

As far as Chaos Fighters, you gotta be kidding those things may as well be TIE/ln's... They would be totally outmatched by the fighters Xizor can haul in.

Chaos Fighter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CX-133_Chaos_fighter

Xizor has Star Vipers
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/StarV...ttack_platform

His Virago is more powerful than the standard model, anyways these things were about as manueverable as a TIE interceptor, yet had shields and a secondary weapon package (torpedo launcher).

Even if one assumes a Chaos Fighter can match a Star Viper in speed and maneuverability (which it probably couldn't), the Star Viper has shields, a Chaos Fighter does not (just like about ever other Sith style mass produced fighter).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Basilisk_war_droid

These are more impressive, but again they'd have a harder time against the ships Xizor would probably haul into battle, and they have some serious limitations due to their design. Older starfighters like the Z-95 (adapted for space), would reduce those things to scrap, I actually would say the firepower of these things are impressive, but it's flaw in leaving the pilot exposed to space means that there is a serious limitation on these things when it comes to speed and maneuverability. That is the advantage that even a Y-Wing would have against this thing.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.31.2013 , 05:34 PM | #172
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Second is Xizor's ability to buy things (correct me if I'm wrong). I think this area is being overestimated. Not his ability to purchase stuff, because let's face it, he could buy whatever he wants. What I'm talking about is how quickly he can get this stuff. He can't just buy something and it instantly be there next to him like in a video game (not that that was implied). This strategy takes time. He needs to set up deals, make transactions, and then transport the stuff where he needs it. This takes time, and unless he buys everything on Coruscant, he doesn't have the time to get everything. But by all means, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. The Black Market isn't my forte.
Referencing the TCW episode with Mustafar (which is apparently Xizor's only standing base other than Coruscant) the Black Sun is able to pull together supplies, weapons, and armies extremely quickly. The exact time table isn't given, but we can assume that the episode happened within the span of a couple days.

But if Xizor and the Black Sun during his era put all their resources into building a fleet... it'll be done quickly.

But on the black market, Xizor IS the Black Market. He doesn't need to buy from himself. The Black Sun is the major crime syndicate in the galaxy, and now the only crime organization. If there's a technology out there, Xizor probably has it. As for transporting stuff, he has countless pirates, smugglers, and weapons dealers whose jobs are to get things from one place to another quickly. I think he'll be just fine gathering his resources quickly.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

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konstadinosblue
02.01.2013 , 03:50 PM | #173
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU KNOW! - The Rock

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f@ck rock for the phoenix screwjob) (rock is an a!@kissing s@n o! a @@@@! ) hey im breaking the fourth wall!

Oh I forgot:

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AND THIS THREAD WILL NEVEER EEEEEEEEVER BE THE SAMEE AGAIIIIIIN!!!

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*Cuts his veins with a scissor and collapses to the floor dying in agony*

HAVE A NICE DAY!
Ahsoka: "Well, you want the bad news, or the really bad news?"
Obi-Wan: "Well, let's try the bad news laced with a little optimism."
―Ahsoka Tano and Obi-Wan Kenobi, attempting to flee from Mortis

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.02.2013 , 06:30 AM | #174
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Does Xizor know about the millions of Krath waiting less than a day away from him?

Yes.

Xizor's information network would alert him IMMEDIATLY if such a force suddenly appeared that close to his HQ. Xizor may not know about Ulic, but he'll know about the Krath, and that they are obviously out to kill him and go into overdrive preparing. Also, even if he didn't see this attack coming, obviously if a giant army is a week away you're going to start preparing ASAP. I think Xizor will have his ducks in a row when he gets attacked on Coruscant.

I do think Xizor would flee, but not without attempting to destroy Ulic. Being a sitting duck in his palace is an obvious no-no. He'll take his ship and leave, but his fleet will stay on the planet. His palace will be well-guarded and everything will look like Xizor's there.... all while he's escaping to Mustafar () and assembling fhis forces. The battle would probably rage on a couple days, buying him time.

Once Ulic has managed to fight his way to Xizor's throne room, I assume Guri will be waiting there to face him... probably with a bunch of explosives to back her up. The explosion will kill Ulic and Guri, but it'll seem as if (to the Krath forces) Xizor died too.

EDIT: OR Guri could go with him, but they still blow up the palace. Guri assumes command of the Black Sun operations, making it seem as if Xizor is dead. She assembles a fleet that Traya and Kun don't care about because they think they've killed Xizor, while he's secretly schemeing from the shadows.

Bottom Line: I think Xizor will flee and fake his death, buying him time.
Good points, I reckon Xizor will know about an incoming invasion of Coruscant, and maybe even its size, and likely flee. However Xizor faking his death will be more difficult. Mainly because I doubt anyone would believe Xizor died in the explosion that his bodyguard set off, they'd would think Xizor fled long before and left the explosions to behind to kill any trespassers. And there cover will be blown when Guri (Xizor) begins attacks on Traya and Kun - that wouldn't happen if Xizor was actually dead and therefore out of the Kaggath.

This debate has being going on for a week know, so I think I'll call it soon. Perhaps later today or tommorow. So if you've got any final points to make, make them.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
02.02.2013 , 08:24 AM | #175
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
This debate has being going on for a week know, so I think I'll call it soon. Perhaps later today or tommorow. So if you've got any final points to make, make them.
I have missed some parts of the debate, I'm not sure if that was discussed before:

If Xizor can buy ships and equipment from shipyards, Kun can take them over.

Here is a scenario if Kun fails to take out his opponents in the first attacks. (I still think he has a pretty good chance to eliminate at least one of them right at the beginning.)

Kun's fleet, under the command of Ulic, encounters increasingly strong ships in increasing numbers. They realize that on the long term, they will be outmatched. So Ulic and Kun develope a plan to change that.

Kun goes to Mon Calamari and pretends to be interested in buying a some cruisers. He uses the Force in subtle ways to find out how many MCs Xizor has ordered and orders more and offers more credits. So they start building for him. (I don't know how long an MC takes to be build and how many they can build at one time.) When they have finished the first few cruisers, Kun comes with the people to man them and to pay.

But he doesn't pay. Instead he uses the Force to freeze the leaders and workers in place like he did in the senate. Then he demands they continue building for him if they want to live. He kills some of those who refuse and enslaves the rest. Then he leaves some of his Dark Jedi to watch over the shipyards.

(Xizor gets no more MCs, while Kun gets them.)

In the meantime, the Mandalorians ran rampage on smaller shipyards. (No more ships for Xizor from those.)

Ulic and his fleet and troops take over Coruscant or Corellia or another highly industrialized world. (I'm not sure how successful this will be, though. We see in SWTOR that local insurrection can do quite a lot of damage. They have no republic support though, so it will take time and in this time, Ulic can recruit and build. More ships and troops for Kun.)


During this time, some Kraths will pose as mercenaries and be hired by Xizor. (Mandalorians would be more effecitve, of course, but I don't know what they think about infiltration.)

Finally Kun will attack the Black Sun fortress. During the battle, the Krath will sabotage Xizor's ships, mostly blowing themselves up in the process. Since Kun is the one who starts the attack, his fleet will porbably stronger at that moment. As soon as he has the possibility, he will break through to engage them on the ground. His ground troops (Massassi, Krath, War droids, Mandalorians, new recruits) will outmatch the troops on the ground (again, weakened by attacks from infiltrators). But that doesn't matter, because Kun and Ulic will break through the defenses anyway. If Xizor and Guri are there, they will die. If not, they have no significant powerbase left and Kun's army will pick up the rest and destroy them.


Traya is running away all the time, if I understand correctly. This makes dealing with her difficult. The thing with the assassins is that they gain the strength of their opponent, if I remember correctly. (Not the skill, though.) So while some will succeed, other can be defeated and captured. They don't seem loyal to the death to Traya, since she had to kill some of them in the academy on Malachor.

Kun himself will start with Sion. He will sense him through the Force, if he doesn't sense Traya. He will kill Sion again and again and again, while eroding his will. (I KOTOR2 it is possible to convince him with dark side answers, telling him that he is weak and has no chance anyways. This is, of course, not canon. But I think it would still work.) Finally, Sion will give up and die.

The assassins probably know where Traya is. Kun will send them to attack her. They will die in the process, but during the fight Traya might not be able to maintain shielding her presence. Kun will find her and defeat her.

(If not, she can continue to run until she is disqualified. By this point she simply has no chance against Kun anymore. Her only chance was the ambush at the beginning an even this ambush was unlikely to succeed. Because Kuns ship could handle her fleet quite well and the ambush depended on Kun going down to the surface or aboard one of her ships and encountering Sion to distract him long enough, IIRC.)
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Canino's Avatar


Canino
02.02.2013 , 10:15 AM | #176
I'm a little late to the party, but I'm confused. What is the fleet Kun is using? The Tetan navy is with Ulic correct? And what ships does Kun's fleet (the ones with him) possess-do we know numbers?? Just a little befuddled, that is all.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.02.2013 , 11:35 AM | #177
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
I'm a little late to the party, but I'm confused. What is the fleet Kun is using? The Tetan navy is with Ulic correct? And what ships does Kun's fleet (the ones with him) possess-do we know numbers?? Just a little befuddled, that is all.
Exar Kun's forces include the Krath armies and fleets, and the Mandalorian armies and fleets. Fleet numbers are sketchy, but we know he has more than three hundred vessels (having stolen them from the Foerost shipyards).
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
02.02.2013 , 12:32 PM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Exar Kun's forces include the Krath armies and fleets, and the Mandalorian armies and fleets. Fleet numbers are sketchy, but we know he has more than three hundred vessels (having stolen them from the Foerost shipyards).
Xizor offered 300 ships to Vader to protect the Death Star in the bat of an eye.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
02.02.2013 , 12:49 PM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Xizor offered 300 ships to Vader to protect the Death Star in the bat of an eye.
Well, the 300 ships are the additional ships Ulic captured in the shipyards of Foerost. In total he has the Tetan Navy (unknown number) + Mandalorian Fleet (unknown number) + 300 republic ships.

(By the way, while reading the scene again, I found Exar Kun saying to Ulic: "[Don't attack Coruscant right now.] You'll jeopardize my whole plan. We must build slowly... add to the Forces... then we'll attack together." (Which is pretty much the scenario I described.) So brutish, head on attacks are not everything he does.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.02.2013 , 01:17 PM | #180
Am thinking this battle as run its course, so pretty sure we can move on otherwise were just gonna keep going round and round in circles.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.