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Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.28.2013 , 05:16 PM | #131
Uh guys that post was more of a joke then anything else lol, I just wanted to use that awesome line. Of course I wouldn't put it passed Xizor, to do something like that.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.28.2013 , 05:24 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Uh guys that post was more of a joke then anything else lol, I just wanted to use that awesome line. Of course I wouldn't put it passed Xizor, to do something like that.
I know it was lol.

Indeed that line is full of awesome
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
01.28.2013 , 07:33 PM | #133
Why would Kreia run from Malachor V to begin with? That's where she is at her strongest, it would be easiest for her to take down Exar Kun on Malachor V.

Additionally, between planetary defense satellites, planetary defense shields, etc. Ulic's fleet would have a much harder time going at the Coruscant of Xizors time, it was much more heavily defended even without the star destroyers being present, than when Ulic attacked Coruscant.

Darth Traya isn't a match against Exar Kun in lightsaber combat, however she probably is more skilled than Exar Kun in using the force.

If Exar Kun divides his forces and has Ulic attacking Coruscant while he goes after Traya on Malachor, then he will have seriously underestimated Kreia's strength or overestimated his own, a mistake that will cost him his life.

I also don't think Ulic would be able to kill Xizor by attacking Coruscant, seriously to say that Coruscant would be undefended (considering the reason why Xizor's palace was there had to do with all the planetary defenses among other reasons), is laughable. Either Xizor has plenty of time to make his escape, or Ulic's fleet is decimated in orbit, and even if Ulic's forces manage to invade, it would have suffered extensive losses and may in fact tip the scales to Xizor when it comes to space combat.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.28.2013 , 08:27 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Darth Traya isn't a match against Exar Kun in lightsaber combat, however she probably is more skilled than Exar Kun in using the force.
She is not. The only abilities Traya has and Kun doesn't is the way she severed the Force from the Jedi Masters and her ability to see the future. However, we know from Tales of the Jedi that it took the entire Jedi Order to create a Wall of Light (an ability closely connected to Sever Force) around Exar Kun, and even that only imprisoned his spirit. When Odan-Urr tried it alone, it didn't work. So her Sever Force/Force drain won't work.
Kun's Force powers, on the other hand, where enhanced by his Sith amulet. He could create powerful Force Blasts which killed a gigantic Sith and countless Massassi. It could also destroy the Spirit of Freedon Nadd. (It could also be used to knock out people.) It seems like he was also able to Force persuade the Jedi Master Odan-Urr into dying. Also, a ritual to consume the life of his Massassi almost on SWTOR-Emperor level. And he knew a lot about Sith alchemy, but that won't be relevant.

Well, ok, Traya has Force lightning and her lightsaber juggling, but Kun would shrug both of. Kun is definitly overpowered, so far that I consider him the second most powerful Sith Lord in known history, only surpassed by Palpatine.

Quote:
I also don't think Ulic would be able to kill Xizor by attacking Coruscant, seriously to say that Coruscant would be undefended (considering the reason why Xizor's palace was there had to do with all the planetary defenses among other reasons), is laughable. Either Xizor has plenty of time to make his escape, or Ulic's fleet is decimated in orbit, and even if Ulic's forces manage to invade, it would have suffered extensive losses and may in fact tip the scales to Xizor when it comes to space combat.
Well, the tech-level in the Kaggath is universal. So I think the planetary defenses are on kind of an average historical level. I would assume the automatic defenses will give Xizor time to flee, but they won't damage the Tetan Navy enough to make a real difference. (Of course Xizor could start an evacuation right away, because he knows that the planet is not protected by the Empire anymore.)
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.28.2013 , 08:32 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Why would Kreia run from Malachor V to begin with? That's where she is at her strongest, it would be easiest for her to take down Exar Kun on Malachor V.

Additionally, between planetary defense satellites, planetary defense shields, etc. Ulic's fleet would have a much harder time going at the Coruscant of Xizors time, it was much more heavily defended even without the star destroyers being present, than when Ulic attacked Coruscant.

Darth Traya isn't a match against Exar Kun in lightsaber combat, however she probably is more skilled than Exar Kun in using the force.

If Exar Kun divides his forces and has Ulic attacking Coruscant while he goes after Traya on Malachor, then he will have seriously underestimated Kreia's strength or overestimated his own, a mistake that will cost him his life.

I also don't think Ulic would be able to kill Xizor by attacking Coruscant, seriously to say that Coruscant would be undefended (considering the reason why Xizor's palace was there had to do with all the planetary defenses among other reasons), is laughable. Either Xizor has plenty of time to make his escape, or Ulic's fleet is decimated in orbit, and even if Ulic's forces manage to invade, it would have suffered extensive losses and may in fact tip the scales to Xizor when it comes to space combat.
There are no defensive satellites above Coruscant. See here:

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And finally Aurbere, not quite. While the planetary defense aren't strictly part of Xizor's powerbase, they are still present in the Kaggath. Coruscant's planetary defenses are as much a part of it as its skyscrapers are. I mean, look at Malachor V, the various 'fauna and flora' are not strictly part of Traya's powerbase - but are still present. So the same applies to Coruscant. However Xizor doesn't have the Golan platforms, just the shields and the turbolasers (only the automatic defenses), seeing as the Golan platforms are Imperial space stations.

However it doesn't make Coruscant impenetrable though. With a rag-tag force guarding the planet Ulic's fleet can rip through them easily and bypass the shields and turbolasers by sending a small landing party to infiltrate the palace (or just himself.) However it does give Xizor plenty of time to escape.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
01.28.2013 , 10:20 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
She is not. The only abilities Traya has and Kun doesn't is the way she severed the Force from the Jedi Masters and her ability to see the future. However, we know from Tales of the Jedi that it took the entire Jedi Order to create a Wall of Light (an ability closely connected to Sever Force) around Exar Kun, and even that only imprisoned his spirit. When Odan-Urr tried it alone, it didn't work. So her Sever Force/Force drain won't work.
The use of the Wall of Light was in Champions of the Force, if I remember correctly. The Jedi actually used orbital bombardment against Exar Kun which is why he used all his followers as sacrifices to preserve his spirit...

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Kun's Force powers, on the other hand, where enhanced by his Sith amulet. He could create powerful Force Blasts which killed a gigantic Sith and countless Massassi. It could also destroy the Spirit of Freedon Nadd. (It could also be used to knock out people.) It seems like he was also able to Force persuade the Jedi Master Odan-Urr into dying. Also, a ritual to consume the life of his Massassi almost on SWTOR-Emperor level. And he knew a lot about Sith alchemy, but that won't be relevant.
Have you ever played TSL, Traya's sever force took out 3 Jedi Masters at the same time... Odan-Urr was also very old, he was practically on his death bed already. If Exar Kun does pull that ritual, then Traya effectively wins, because he essentially kills himself and imprisons his soul in that location for several thousand years... Very effective.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Well, ok, Traya has Force lightning and her lightsaber juggling, but Kun would shrug both of. Kun is definitly overpowered, so far that I consider him the second most powerful Sith Lord in known history, only surpassed by Palpatine.
You are seriously underestimating Traya, not to mention people are floating a scenario that Ulic would not be there with Exar Kun, whom would have to take on both Traya and Sion, if they decided to take Exar Kun on at the same time (Exar Kun is likely to seriously tick off Sion with his pompous attitude and would likely challenge them both at the same time), I'm sorry while Exar Kun was powerful, he's not that powerful.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Well, the tech-level in the Kaggath is universal. So I think the planetary defenses are on kind of an average historical level. I would assume the automatic defenses will give Xizor time to flee, but they won't damage the Tetan Navy enough to make a real difference. (Of course Xizor could start an evacuation right away, because he knows that the planet is not protected by the Empire anymore.)
True, however the coruscant of the period didn't have the defenses that the Coruscant of Xizor's period had (even if you don't include the defense platforms). In order to try to take down a planetary defense shield, you have to close to within range of the planetary defense turbolasers, ion canons, etc. Ulic's style as a Sith often displayed a straightforward attack strategy, so I'm not sure he would actually think to dispatch a small strike force, I think he really would try to dominate things with brute force, which would result in several ships being destroyed fairly quickly.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.28.2013 , 11:09 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The use of the Wall of Light was in Champions of the Force, if I remember correctly. The Jedi actually used orbital bombardment against Exar Kun which is why he used all his followers as sacrifices to preserve his spirit...
It was Wall of Light in the comicbook. The Jedi were surprised when the planet started to burn because of it.

Quote:
Have you ever played TSL, Traya's sever force took out 3 Jedi Masters at the same time... Odan-Urr was also very old, he was practically on his death bed already. If Exar Kun does pull that ritual, then Traya effectively wins, because he essentially kills himself and imprisons his soul in that location for several thousand years... Very effective.
The comicbook shows Kun clearly surprised that he is imprisoned. He didn't intend it to happen, the Jedi's wall of light did it.
Yeah, I played TSL. Traya took 3 Jedi Masters at one time, while hundreds of Jedi were needed to use it (well, the similar Wall of Light) on him at the same time. (see above)


Quote:
You are seriously underestimating Traya, not to mention people are floating a scenario that Ulic would not be there with Exar Kun, whom would have to take on both Traya and Sion, if they decided to take Exar Kun on at the same time (Exar Kun is likely to seriously tick off Sion with his pompous attitude and would likely challenge them both at the same time), I'm sorry while Exar Kun was powerful, he's not that powerful.
Well, Sion was once a Jedi who joined Exar Kun. So some time in the past he wasn't ticked off by Kun.) AFAIK Sion isn't that skilled as a duellist, he only continues to come back until his opponent makes a mistake or grows to weak. Kun could use the Force blast to knock him out of the fight every time he comes back.

Hmm, while reading over the story again, I can't fight any instance of Kun challanging several Jedi at once. I think he would have been more than capable of doing this, but he seemed to prefer one-on-one-duels.

Quote:
True, however the coruscant of the period didn't have the defenses that the Coruscant of Xizor's period had (even if you don't include the defense platforms). In order to try to take down a planetary defense shield, you have to close to within range of the planetary defense turbolasers, ion canons, etc. Ulic's style as a Sith often displayed a straightforward attack strategy, so I'm not sure he would actually think to dispatch a small strike force, I think he really would try to dominate things with brute force, which would result in several ships being destroyed fairly quickly.
IIRC before the attack on Coruscant he faked an attack in another sector to draw the defenders away. During the battle he focused on the ground assault. He is capable of military strategy and will know if the losses are to high to maintain the attack.

Edit: During the entire Great Sith War, Kun's arrogance never lead to him making a wrong decision. He was very confident, but not overconfident. (His "mistake" was that he didn't expect Ulic to turn back to the light and trusted him too much.)
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.29.2013 , 02:36 PM | #138
Concerning the 'Battle of Yavin IV'...

Maaurin, you certainly put across a powerful argument for Kun's Mandalorian Fleet - but I feel there are some considerable flaws, flaws Traya could easily exploit. For the purpose of argument, lets say Kun has 2 Kyramud-type battleships and therefore 9 Shaadlar-type troopships:

  • I would agree that concerning firepower the Shaaldlar is superior, but what it lacks strength in is shielding. As a troopship it would have a low shield 'rating' and therefore be unable to withstand sustained fire. Have you played Empire at War? If you have you might remember these things. They packed a punch but immediately became the primary target, and once targeted by either fighters of close range cruiser fire, they would flee, as there shields could not withstand such an attack (and they could not bring there missiles to bear.) I believe we would have a similar scenario here, accept in this case Traya could use Tractor beams (each ship was equipped with one) to hold them in place while 500+ sith interceptors will blow them to pieces.

  • All this leaves is Kun's Kyramuds - yes I would agree they are equal if not superior to the Ravager, but there outnumbered 5 to 1. We also have to consider that Traya has the element of surprise, and can therefore attack Kun's fleet before they can activate their shields, doing some heavy initial damage. We also have to consider that both the Kyramud and the Shaaldar where designed for air-to-ground assaults. And therefore will find their weapons (e.g. concussion missile launchers - laser things) difficult or impossible to bring to bear at a close range.

  • And an finally, if any of Traya's ships are crippled, she can have them ram into Kun's kamikaze style. Given the mindless (and I mean mindless) obedience her forces had to her, they would oblige. And a doubt even a Kyramud could withstand head on collision with an Interdictor or a Centurion.

And Aurbere, by 'seen' do you mean literally? Because Traya's foresight would mean she would be gone long before Kun even got to Malachor V.

I certainly think concerning this too other options need to be considered:

  • Kun stays at Malachor and waits for Traya to reappear, and for the Tetan Fleet to rendevous with him after destroying Xizor or defeating him over Coruscant.

  • Kun leaves the Outer Rim behind and joins with Ulic in the Core Worlds to assist in the hunt for Xizor. (Could Kun's foresight be used here?)

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.29.2013 , 02:52 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Concerning the 'Battle of Yavin IV'...

Maaurin, you certainly put across a powerful argument for Kun's Mandalorian Fleet - but I feel there are some considerable flaws, flaws Traya could easily exploit. For the purpose of argument, lets say Kun has 2 Kyramud-type battleships and therefore 9 Shaadlar-type troopships:

  • I would agree that concerning firepower the Shaaldlar is superior, but what it lacks strength in is shielding. As a troopship it would have a low shield 'rating' and therefore be unable to withstand sustained fire. Have you played Empire at War? If you have you might remember these things. They packed a punch but immediately became the primary target, and once targeted by either fighters of close range cruiser fire, they would flee, as there shields could not withstand such an attack (and they could not bring there missiles to bear.) I believe we would have a similar scenario here, accept in this case Traya could use Tractor beams (each ship was equipped with one) to hold them in place while 500+ sith interceptors will blow them to pieces.

  • All this leaves is Kun's Kyramuds - yes I would agree they are equal if not superior to the Ravager, but there outnumbered 5 to 1. We also have to consider that Traya has the element of surprise, and can therefore attack Kun's fleet before they can activate their shields, doing some heavy initial damage. We also have to consider that both the Kyramud and the Shaaldar where designed for air-to-ground assaults. And therefore will find their weapons (e.g. concussion missile launchers - laser things) difficult or impossible to bring to bear at a close range.

  • And an finally, if any of Traya's ships are crippled, she can have them ram into Kun's kamikaze style. Given the mindless (and I mean mindless) obedience her forces had to her, they would oblige. And a doubt even a Kyramud could withstand head on collision with an Interdictor or a Centurion.

And Aurbere, by 'seen' do you mean literally? Because Traya's foresight would mean she would be gone long before Kun even got to Malachor V.

I certainly think concerning this too other options need to be considered:

  • Kun stays at Malachor and waits for Traya to reappear, and for the Tetan Fleet to rendevous with him after destroying Xizor or defeating him over Coruscant.

  • Kun leaves the Outer Rim behind and joins with Ulic in the Core Worlds to assist in the hunt for Xizor. (Could Kun's foresight be used here?)
There isn't going to be a Battle of Yavin yet. Once Kun discovers that Traya fled from him, he will consider her a coward and unworthy of his time. Which means he will direct his attention to Xizor (unless Ulic killed him on Coruscant). I don't think Xizor can muster the forces to hold back the entirety of Kun's armada. He will do some major damage, but he will be overwhelmed and defeated eventually. Especially when you consider Exar Kun mixing his war beasts in with his armies, that will sow some major fear in Xizor's ranks.

So once Xizor is defeated, Traya will have to deal with the rest of Kun's forces. And there will be alot of them.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.29.2013 , 04:43 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
There isn't going to be a Battle of Yavin yet. Once Kun discovers that Traya fled from him, he will consider her a coward and unworthy of his time. Which means he will direct his attention to Xizor (unless Ulic killed him on Coruscant). I don't think Xizor can muster the forces to hold back the entirety of Kun's armada. He will do some major damage, but he will be overwhelmed and defeated eventually. Especially when you consider Exar Kun mixing his war beasts in with his armies, that will sow some major fear in Xizor's ranks.

So once Xizor is defeated, Traya will have to deal with the rest of Kun's forces. And there will be alot of them.
This doesn't make any sense. Both Traya and Xizor will flee their HQs, meaning Kun will think BOTH are cowards and unworthy. Add to the equation that Xizor is a crime lord and not a Sith lord, and Kun will go after Traya first. Giving Xizor time to assemble at his fortress and ready is limitless resources and powerful army to battle Kun. Xizor will also be able to play from the shadows, sending assassins or Guri or biological weapons/bad supplies.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?