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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.23.2013 , 07:44 PM | #491
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
The technology level of the Star Wars universe should really render this as a moot point. A surgery to change genders, or even to the level of full DNA modification, should well and truly be possible - and it would be far far better than any GRS available in 2013 Earth.
Full DNA modification might be a bit of a technological stretch to be able to apply 'should well and truly be possible' to, but your point is well made in regards to GRS. No matter what we think of GRS it'd be considerably more advanced in any Star Wars age.

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As a somewhat poly person myself, I would certainly embrace the (positive) representation of poly people in SWTOR. I am sure I'm not the only one.
Yep. I'm another one. But it won't happen. The relationship systems we've seen modelled in this and every similar game have hinged upon the PC either having only one choice or having to choose one option between a restricted number of choices. Heck, even The Sims 3 doesn't have any real capacity for polyamory (though there's a 'No Jealousy' lifetime reward and if you set the whole household up with that then none of them ever experience jealousy from each other).

It could happen. It's possible. A player made a polyamory patch for DAO and even pick and chose existing dialogue lines that made sense for conversations about jealousy and overcoming it. It was absolutely artfully done. But it won't happen because resources are stretched as it is and polyamory is still too hot-button a topic to get a look-in. Even more so, I'd argue, than SGRAs.

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However, with current computers and storage, representing every little nuance of human sexuality is pretty much nigh on impossible. Where do we draw the line? Because really, until computers are more advanced (faster to load with greater storage), perhaps the fairest way to deal with sexuality is to - not deal with it at all. Perhaps the fairest way of all is simply to eliminate romances as an option all together.
The fairest way of dealing with all options is to not have a game at all, though. What fun would that be? Romances are in the game and are a pretty emotive part of it (if they weren't then people wouldn't get so upset about them). It's not like we as players actually have a say in how they're dealt with but I'd say the best option would be to put in SGRAs and then work on introducing other elements bit by bit.
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PowerJediRanger's Avatar


PowerJediRanger
03.23.2013 , 09:16 PM | #492
I wonder if the devs are going to have some NPCs that reject you if you try to romance if they are of the same gender? That would make things interesting.
"Do or do not, there is no try."

stormdrakelord's Avatar


stormdrakelord
03.23.2013 , 10:40 PM | #493
I am pretending that my Fem!Agent and Kaliyo have a friends with benefits type of relationship (Complete mission, have sex, mention of not one word, and things go back to normal) as well as my Trooper missing her Cyborg spouse/life partner (my agent) way too much for romance.

helps me sleep.
Han Solo: Great, kid. Don't get cocky.

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
03.24.2013 , 12:16 AM | #494
There is actually Star Wars lore supporting Poly relationships. The Cerean race (Like Jedi Master Ki-Adi-Mundi) apparently has a vastly higher birth rate for females in comparison to males. Due to this, it's typical for a male to take multiple wives in order to up the chances of the birth of a boy. Ki-Adi-Mundi was one of the few to receive a special exemption from the anti-marriage customs of the Jedi.

I'm not familiar with modern poly lifestyle, so I don't know how well that fits. Personally I think it would be kinda cool to see a relationship that subverts the typical idea of Poly relationships that I'm normally exposed to, and consists of a wife and multiple husbands, or a mix of multiple of each gender.

Personally, I wish this game played with culture a lot more than it does. I know Star Wars is no Star Trek when it comes to different cultures and society structures, but I feel like it has a lot more to offer than we are exposed to. All we get to see is traditional societies and cultures. Things get a little playful on Voss, but not much.

I have no idea why SGRAs wouldn't have been in from the start. I also have no idea why we wouldn't go to worlds with vastly different cultures. Maybe pay a visit to the Cerean planet and see the Poly societal structure. Who doesn't want to set down on Kashyyk and see the arboreal tribes of Wookies? Why shouldn't we land on a planet where the local sentient species can change gender/sex at will?

BioWare could have made this universe incredibly diverse from the outset. Unfortunately they didn't. So now that they've built a strictly traditional universe, we have to push for breaks from tradition. Since I don't expect that we'll be getting a diversification expansion that adds in all the stuff they missed when first crafting the game, it makes sense to push first for the basics.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.24.2013 , 07:01 AM | #495
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
The fairest way of dealing with all options is to not have a game at all, though. What fun would that be? Romances are in the game and are a pretty emotive part of it (if they weren't then people wouldn't get so upset about them). It's not like we as players actually have a say in how they're dealt with but I'd say the best option would be to put in SGRAs and then work on introducing other elements bit by bit.
Now see, when people made that suggestion to just get rid of them all, they were called what again?

Why do all the rest bit by bit? If BW/EA had said "We're going to slowly start adding in SGR with companions, bit by bit, starting with F/F first untill all F/F are covered, because that's most likely to be the more popular option amongst players" the bit by bit way of it, would have had a few people upset. We wouldn't being hearing "YAY! SGR Companions!" well we would, but you'd have the complaints about it and they'd be vocal.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
03.24.2013 , 07:07 AM | #496
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
Full DNA modification might be a bit of a technological stretch to be able to apply 'should well and truly be possible' to, but your point is well made in regards to GRS. No matter what we think of GRS it'd be considerably more advanced in any Star Wars age.
I was thinking about GRS this morning and, while I don't think DNA manipulation would be possible, a far more comprehensive FtM and MtF set of surgeries are (to me) likely already existent in the Star Wars Universe, to the point where an MtF could carry a child if she wished or an FtM could father one in the traditional manner.

My talk about gender stereotypes and gender expression was more because the game seems to represent them in a very... contemporary Earth manner, rather than having demonstrations of non-binary and non-Western peoples and persons.

I know my Warrior would have been very annoyed, maybe even angry, at Quinn's remarks of her needing confinement due to pregnancy, but the game dialogue seems to assume that that is the goal of every female character entering a relationship with a male NPC.


Quote: Originally Posted by PowerJediRanger View Post
I wonder if the devs are going to have some NPCs that reject you if you try to romance if they are of the same gender? That would make things interesting.
As that does not happen for Opposite Gender [Flirt]ing, I find it unlikely. Until they start treating all [Flirt]s equally, this game is a dream fantasy where a wink and a nudge lead to a magical, fairy tale romance.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.24.2013 , 07:13 AM | #497
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I was thinking about GRS this morning and, while I don't think DNA manipulation would be possible, a far more comprehensive FtM and MtF set of surgeries are (to me) likely already existent in the Star Wars Universe, to the point where an MtF could carry a child if she wished or an FtM could father one in the traditional manner.

My talk about gender stereotypes and gender expression was more because the game seems to represent them in a very... contemporary Earth manner, rather than having demonstrations of non-binary and non-Western peoples and persons.

I know my Warrior would have been very annoyed, maybe even angry, at Quinn's remarks of her needing confinement due to pregnancy, but the game dialogue seems to assume that that is the goal of every female character entering a relationship with a male NPC.




As that does not happen for Opposite Gender [Flirt]ing, I find it unlikely. Until they start treating all [Flirt]s equally, this game is a dream fantasy where a wink and a nudge lead to a magical, fairy tale romance.
So why no wink and a nudge on the full DNA manipulation? We have clones. We have cybernetics.

And it's contemporary Earth manner, because that's what the audience understands. That's just common sense. And please note, by audience, I don't mean there aren't others who can see it differently, it just means the masses (and it's sad that I have to make that note).

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.24.2013 , 09:16 AM | #498
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Now see, when people made that suggestion to just get rid of them all, they were called what again?
Do you know, I have the feeling you're insinuating something here but you haven't made it particularly clear.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Why do all the rest bit by bit?
Because, as Slaign and others have pointed out, resources are not such that the whole lot could be put in all at once. It's ridiculous to assume they could do that. We should certainly have seen OGRAs and SGRAs in at launch but we didn't. I'd love to see polyamorous options implemented but the majority of the classes don't even have two options for both genders to choose between; for my JK it was Doc or nobody. It'd be great if transfolk were represented fairly but from what we've seen of how they've dealt with SGRAs (and, many would argue, OGRAs) it's unlikely we'll even see transgendered NPCs, let alone companion or PC options for the same.

We know (or at least suspect with reasonable certainty) that the writing team, PvP team, PvE team etc are, in fact, different teams so there might not be much (if any) resource conflict in the sense of people working on their respective areas. But I'm willing to bet that the writing team has a very specific restriction in terms of money, and there's no doubt that the finances of the game are tied to subscriptions and micro-transactions through the Cartel Shop. By its very nature the available money BW:A will have access to is both finite and available at a restricted rate.

Bit by bit, baby steps, is the only way it's feasible to realistically implement these features. They have the money for part of it, they work on it and put it in. They get the money for the next part, they work on that and put it in. And all the while the teams have to talk to the finance guys to convince them that their department needs more money.

I'm not sure how I can make that point more clear.
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Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
03.25.2013 , 02:04 AM | #499
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I was thinking about GRS this morning and, while I don't think DNA manipulation would be possible, a far more comprehensive FtM and MtF set of surgeries are (to me) likely already existent in the Star Wars Universe, to the point where an MtF could carry a child if she wished or an FtM could father one in the traditional manner.
We already have gene therapy on Earth (which is pretty much the manipulation of DNA), in a fantasy universe like Star Wars I don't really think it's all that far fetched.

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My talk about gender stereotypes and gender expression was more because the game seems to represent them in a very... contemporary Earth manner, rather than having demonstrations of non-binary and non-Western peoples and persons.
I think the limited nature of representation in the game has more to do with the limitations of the game engine than a conscious choice to exclude anyone. If you add more body type models (say a more androgynous model for both sexes, and a more masculine one for females, and a more feminine one for males - so four more models in total), you then have to make sure that each set of armour in the game fits those as well, which results in gear graphics taking more time to produce, therefore more money, and also causing the game take to up more space, the databases to do more work when loading large numbers of people, etc.

As for characterisation, particularly with regards to gender identity - in order to allow a range of reactions, a certain number of vocal tracks need to be recorded. The greater the range of reactions, the more vocal tracks are required, the bigger the game becomes, the longer it takes to get content out, and the more money the voice talent needs to be paid. There are practical considerations which limit exactly how inclusive the game can be.

So in the end, they have to draw the line somewhere. The line in this game is drawn at pretty standard models and characterisation. (And to be fair, some of the body types could quite easily work for non-standard gender expression female BT 3 (the tallest one), and male BT 1 (the skinniest and smallest) for example.)

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I know my Warrior would have been very annoyed, maybe even angry, at Quinn's remarks of her needing confinement due to pregnancy, but the game dialogue seems to assume that that is the goal of every female character entering a relationship with a male NPC.
Fortunately, my SW wouldn't romance Quinn at all. She's just not interested, so she'd never come across that conversation. But if she were, I think she'd throw him out the airlock for making such a stupid suggestion. Sadly, the game does not let us have that reaction.

As for reproduction seeming to be the goal for F!PC/M!NPC relationships - how disappointing. As a childfree woman, it often annoys me to see motherhood put up on such a pedestal (as if it's the end goal of all women), because it inevitably places childfree or childless people (and there is a distinct difference between the two states) as being less valuable/less human. I'd personally love to see the inclusion of childfree as a choice for PCs of all genders (or even *gasp* NPCs!) in romances, but I doubt I'll ever see it.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

DarkTrooperV's Avatar


DarkTrooperV
03.25.2013 , 10:19 AM | #500
*sigh* I saw this but....I dunno.

Quote:
4. Makeb is the first planet in SWTOR where players can experience same sex romance options in the storyline. Can we expect to see more of this in future stories or as modifications in existing storylines?

Brian: While adding same sex romance options to existing storylines is a bit difficult, we absolutely plan to add more same sex romance options to future story content. What you’ll see in Rise of the Hutt Cartel is just the beginning.
I feel like it's more PR spin. I don't have faith in EA anymore.

http://dulfy.net/2013/03/25/swtor-ri...brian-audette/
The Joker: They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.