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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.23.2013 , 04:40 PM | #481
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I'm sorry, did you just say that if one character is a transwoman and is made with the female body in this game, and she romances Vector, that because she was born and assigned male at birth, that she is in fact having a gay relationship with Vector?

Because if you are, you are wrong on so many, many levels, it's disgusting.
Nope. Didn't say that at all. What I said was you take the female avatar, say she considers herself male (as it's been stated in this thread by many that mental gender is just as important if not more so) and so it is now a male with a male with any romance option available in game.

Where did I ever mention surgery? o.O When has one considering themself the opposite gender than they were born, meant they had to get or even wanted to get surgery?

And why is it, when people pushing for SGR aren't pushing for transgender or poly relationships. Why is it, those pushing for SGR have said "Sure, wouldn't be bad, but not worth pushing for that as it'll just be a waste of time and money." when it's just as valid and being totally overlooked?

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.23.2013 , 04:43 PM | #482
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
It's certainly written as if all the PCs are cisgendered (which one of my own characters would take extremely violent exception to, but that's another matter). Either way I think SK's original comment doesn't add anything particularly useful to the discussion. A curious philosophical point, perhaps, but this thread isn't about discussing the philosophy or psychology of identity vs biology, it's to discuss the implementation of SGRs into the existing game.

And as sad as it is to say I think transgendered people are going to remain unrepresented in terms of PCs. I'd love to see at least a few openly transgendered NPCs in neutral locations (such as Nar Shaddaa) but for PCs I think the only option will remain to make any transgendered people firmly post-op (making a male character for a transmale and a female for transfemale).

To add to that it still leaves a gap in sexuality which full SGRAs are needed to fill. I have a very dear friend who's a transmale - a gay transmale. He's only interested in other guys. One couldn't play a character similar to him in SWTOR. Making a male character (a slim, short male character) is a possibility but not a slim short openly gay male character.

SGRAs - full SGRAs - are the right way to go.
Actually, my comment was about how it could be in game now, and thusly implementing it into the game.

As to how the companions refer to the PC, easily explained away that it isn't untill after the romance arc, that the companion has come to accept it fully, in that there's nothing more after it. You complete the arc, nothing more happens.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.23.2013 , 04:46 PM | #483
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Actually, my comment was about how it could be in game now, and thusly implementing it into the game.
No, your comment was about how to take one possible context into account while not implementing anything new into the game at all. Implementing into one's play-style is not the same thing as implementing into the game.
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.23.2013 , 04:59 PM | #484
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
No, your comment was about how to take one possible context into account while not implementing anything new into the game at all. Implementing into one's play-style is not the same thing as implementing into the game.
Okay, my idea does just require one to use their imagination in an RPG. But we also know SGR is being implemented into TOR with 2.0, sooo, what more is to be discussed on how to implement something that's being implemented?

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
03.23.2013 , 05:03 PM | #485
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
And why is it, when people pushing for SGR aren't pushing for transgender or poly relationships. Why is it, those pushing for SGR have said "Sure, wouldn't be bad, but not worth pushing for that as it'll just be a waste of time and money." when it's just as valid and being totally overlooked?
Trans* individuals have been discussed. We have discussed it and said that implementing it properly would require an over-haul of the character creation system and a nuanced understanding of gender identity and expression, as well as the definition of gender roles, gender stereotypes and and gender expression in the Star Wars beyond what has been detailed now, with regards to human and non-human species. Not to mention the requirement then to have three sexes for human and near-humans, before the addition of the gender spectrum, then expression and then preferred pro-nouns. That would require re-recording dialogue that exists in the game as well as making new ones.

We have discussed trans* representation in this game and others. I outlined a way of adding non-binary gender and sex into character creation in the previous thread. You simply did not read those posts.

As to ploy relationships, those have previously only been mentioned by dissenters of SGRAs, and thus I do not believe Bioware takes those proposals seriously, even if those of us in this thread do.

Do not assume that because we find the cost of over-hauling character creation, and re-recording dialogue to recognize trans* and non-binary individuals in this game, prohibitive that we are in some way transphobic.

Trans* people SHOULD be represented in SWTOR. It would be preferable if trans* individuals could be PCs, but I doubt Bioware currently have the resources to support that or implement in a sensitive way. It is far more likely that trans* people in SWTOR will be NPCs and that will STILL be better representation than is current in pretty much all mainstream games ever.

So don't you dare say that because we have discussed this and you have found the results unsatisfactory, that we are somehow hateful.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.23.2013 , 05:10 PM | #486
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Trans* individuals have been discussed. We have discussed it and said that implementing it properly would require an over-haul of the character creation system and a nuanced understanding of gender identity and expression, as well as the definition of gender roles, gender stereotypes and and gender expression in the Star Wars beyond what has been detailed now, with regards to human and non-human species. Not to mention the requirement then to have three sexes for human and near-humans, before the addition of the gender spectrum, then expression and then preferred pro-nouns. That would require re-recording dialogue that exists in the game as well as making new ones.

We have discussed trans* representation in this game and others. I outlined a way of adding non-binary gender and sex into character creation in the previous thread. You simply did not read those posts.

As to ploy relationships, those have previously only been mentioned by dissenters of SGRAs, and thus I do not believe Bioware takes those proposals seriously, even if those of us in this thread do.

Do not assume that because we find the cost of over-hauling character creation, and re-recording dialogue to recognize trans* and non-binary individuals in this game, prohibitive that we are in some way transphobic.

Trans* people SHOULD be represented in SWTOR. It would be preferable if trans* individuals could be PCs, but I doubt Bioware currently have the resources to support that or implement in a sensitive way. It is far more likely that trans* people in SWTOR will be NPCs and that will STILL be better representation than is current in pretty much all mainstream games ever.

So don't you dare say that because we have discussed this and you have found the results unsatisfactory, that we are somehow hateful.
I actually never once said hateful. That's you saying that.

What I said is "The waste of money" arguement is being used. If we're going for making everything equal, why not push for it? Why use the baby steps? Why not just go all out on it? Just go for the overhaul and see where the pieces land?

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.23.2013 , 05:16 PM | #487
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Okay, my idea does just require one to use their imagination in an RPG. But we also know SGR is being implemented into TOR with 2.0, sooo, what more is to be discussed on how to implement something that's being implemented?
If you believe there's nothing more to be discussed then feel free to find a thread that interests you more.
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MelodyofLegends's Avatar


MelodyofLegends
03.23.2013 , 06:21 PM | #488
all this talk made me want to throw in my 2 cents! first off,
I am absolutely in favor of same gender romance being implemented.

However I do have one question for those of you discussing the whole transgender issue. keep in mind this question may seem offensive but I am only asking out of genuine curiosity!

Doesn't having a sex change sort of defeat the purpose of a same gender romance?

I mean from my perspective, what makes the idea of a gay/lesbian relationship so appealing is the fact that they are the SAME GENDER!

if I roll say, I post op lady inquisitor, then I may as well have ran a born female! Why? because the end result is the same... a man and a woman. together.... as in a story I have already completed.

it just ends up... lacking.
Oh sweetest of melodies... your destined embrace brings a message of an absolute love! my most treasured of melodies, you deliver to all, a song of love and warm life upon this frozen world!

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.23.2013 , 07:07 PM | #489
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
If you believe there's nothing more to be discussed then feel free to find a thread that interests you more.
Awwww...Kioma, this thread does interrest me, you know, when it stays on TOR and SGR and doesn't for some reason move on to Dragon Age, which I've yet to see how DA has anything to do with TOR.

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
03.23.2013 , 07:25 PM | #490
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Trans* individuals have been discussed. We have discussed it and said that implementing it properly would require an over-haul of the character creation system and a nuanced understanding of gender identity and expression, as well as the definition of gender roles, gender stereotypes and and gender expression in the Star Wars beyond what has been detailed now, with regards to human and non-human species. Not to mention the requirement then to have three sexes for human and near-humans, before the addition of the gender spectrum, then expression and then preferred pro-nouns. That would require re-recording dialogue that exists in the game as well as making new ones.
I just want to quickly address this from the point of view of a writer/world builder, and maybe a little bit of a devil's advocate.

The technology level of the Star Wars universe should really render this as a moot point. A surgery to change genders, or even to the level of full DNA modification, should well and truly be possible - and it would be far far better than any GRS available in 2013 Earth. The player merely has to imagine that their character was born a different sex. (Sure, it'd be nice to be able to be open about it, and be able to mention it in the game somewhere, maybe in a conversation to an LI, but I don't think we really need to go into a more nuanced set of character models, when GRS surgery in the Star Wars universe is probably pretty close to perfect.)

Disclaimer: I have the deepest respect for transgender, bigender, agender, and intersex individuals, and I have no problems at all with their desire for representation, which they should absolutely get! I will be dancing on the streets the day I get to see a game where it is possible to create a T character (and those other gender identities that don't get mentioned all that often).

Quote:
As to ploy relationships, those have previously only been mentioned by dissenters of SGRAs, and thus I do not believe Bioware takes those proposals seriously, even if those of us in this thread do.
As a somewhat poly person myself, I would certainly embrace the (positive) representation of poly people in SWTOR. I am sure I'm not the only one.

However, with current computers and storage, representing every little nuance of human sexuality is pretty much nigh on impossible. Where do we draw the line? Because really, until computers are more advanced (faster to load with greater storage), perhaps the fairest way to deal with sexuality is to - not deal with it at all. Perhaps the fairest way of all is simply to eliminate romances as an option all together.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.