Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.04.2014 , 05:23 PM | #3191
Quote: Originally Posted by Sanguiluna View Post
Never played the Mass Effect series? If your character is female, you can pursue a same-sex romance starting with the 1st game, and that companion's romance arc is actually more substantial than any other character in the trilogy, so it obviously wasn't just BioWare throwing a bone at their LGBT fans.
And Dragon Age's record on this topic is even better.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
02.04.2014 , 05:34 PM | #3192
Quote: Originally Posted by Sanguiluna View Post
Never played the Mass Effect series? If your character is female, you can pursue a same-sex romance starting with the 1st game, and that companion's romance arc is actually more substantial than any other character in the trilogy, so it obviously wasn't just BioWare throwing a bone at their LGBT fans.
Isn't Austin largely complied of outsiders from Bioware? Like, EA made the studio to do this, and brought in new people (yes, Ms. Hepler is Bioware-stock, but she also wrote Corso). Doesn't mean they were all on board with original Bioware's ethos. As evidenced by the fact that we didn't have SGRA content at launch with the reasoning "would've taken too much time *shrug*"

Sanguiluna's Avatar


Sanguiluna
02.04.2014 , 05:59 PM | #3193
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Isn't Austin largely complied of outsiders from Bioware? Like, EA made the studio to do this, and brought in new people (yes, Ms. Hepler is Bioware-stock, but she also wrote Corso). Doesn't mean they were all on board with original Bioware's ethos. As evidenced by the fact that we didn't have SGRA content at launch with the reasoning "would've taken too much time *shrug*"
I always just assumed the reasoning behind no SGRA in this game (as well as KOTOR) was that Star Wars is Lucasarts' IP, not Bioware's, and Lucasarts is too afraid of being accused of "corrupting the young people" by putting homosexuality in Star Wars. Hell, it took them 30 years just to introduce the first openly gay man in the SW canon
It is always midnight in the writer's soul.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
02.04.2014 , 06:22 PM | #3194
Quote: Originally Posted by Sanguiluna View Post
I always just assumed the reasoning behind no SGRA in this game (as well as KOTOR) was that Star Wars is Lucasarts' IP, not Bioware's, and Lucasarts is too afraid of being accused of "corrupting the young people" by putting homosexuality in Star Wars. Hell, it took them 30 years just to introduce the first openly gay man in the SW canon
The FAQ in my signature does list what Natashina could find of Mr. Lucas' position (and subsequently, one can assume Lucas Art's) on the subject. True, that might be a "personal" position, but given the move toward a more inclusive position for many companions in recent years, one would have assumed that a Bioware studio, owned by EA which attended Gaymer Con and has its own "inclusion expert", would have actually made an effort.

Palar's Avatar


Palar
02.05.2014 , 01:14 AM | #3195
Quote: Originally Posted by Sanguiluna View Post
I always just assumed the reasoning behind no SGRA in this game (as well as KOTOR) was that Star Wars is Lucasarts' IP, not Bioware's, and Lucasarts is too afraid of being accused of "corrupting the young people" by putting homosexuality in Star Wars. Hell, it took them 30 years just to introduce the first openly gay man in the SW canon
*** SPOILERS *** If that were the case, I really doubt Erickson and Co. would have spent the first year saying it was going to happen. Granted, their "companion SGR is totally coming, with the characters that make sense" mantra turned out to be some random Sith and a bi woman who will never reappear - judging by the Consular's mentor in Act 1, characters with possible deaths in their branching options are simply forgotten about if they live.

fabiyun's Avatar


fabiyun
02.06.2014 , 08:48 AM | #3196
I've played through 4 classes now, 2 male chars and 2 femals chars, and I can see why removing the "gender-check" cannot happen. Mostly this is because of Austin's sexism though.

Spoiler


I can see the problems they've created for themselves and understand why changing any of it will be a very time consuming task. That said, this doesn't compute at all with their other statement that the inclusion was somehow still forth coming and didn't happen because of time and budgetary constraints at initial release. They put other lines in there, and they made the stories different depending on the gender of your character. They made it hard on themselves.

And this gendered approach doesn't make a better story, I felt like the female Warrior was treated childlike, as if she is some kind of innocent tween whom desperately needs a girlfriend to go to the bathrooms with because going alone is not really girl-like. Female equates girl, whereas male equates man. This difference is classic sexism. Either all characters should be approached as children/teens and there is a Sith Warrior boy and a Sith Warrior girl, or both are considered adults, and there is an SW man and an SW woman. Of course that doesn't happen. Manhood is Warriorlike, female warriors are threathening and non-sexy to the male gaze, so we have a female character in girlhood, innocence that is either to be corrupted for the male *****, or childlike sweetness that for some is fatherhood pride and others a *****.

Playing through yet another class has not made me feel better about the writing in the game, it's not at the level of what I'm used to from BioWare. And I get that people say, this is an MMO, the writing will be weaker. Of course the writing of most quests is simplified because of the nature of an MMO, going through dialogue in a group can be tedious. But that doesn't excuse the writing of the class story, where it should've really been made to shine, nor does it excuse the writing of the companion stories, which are a single player affair. These stories have no excuse for being the way that they are.

Okay, so I've come to agree with Austin that rewriting the companion stories is a very time consuming task. But.. I actually would like to see them changed, because the lack of SGRA isn't the only problem with them, many of these stories are extremely problematic from a woman's perspective, and they should be for men, but unfortunately we live in a rape culture, and these terrible power dynamics, lack of agency and consent are completely normalised. That doesn't mean that they are good though, they may be normalised, but they're still terrible. And that shouldn't just concern women, is there seriously any man whom is proud that all men are essentially rapists until proven otherwise? Are there seriously any men whom like to see rape scenarios over and over again in their games? I guess there are, but I do hope a majority will come to see there are better stories to be told.

The Warrior's companion stories left such a bad taste in my mouth that after this set of stories, if they won't rewrite them, let them just please remove them alltogether. It's been suggested by people whom are terrified of SGRA to just remove all romance, and this is an option that at this point I can also live with. I'm sure there are plenty of rapists whom will still RP their power rape scenario with their companions, but please don't make us all go through it in cinematics. I've seen enough, thank you. And I'd rather not know that 13 year old children are playing through these, this is yet another tool of instruction for rape culture and the patriarchy, that is damaging not just to girls and women, but also robs boys of having the chance to learn a healthy way of relating to the other gender. Lots of boys will be acting out these scenarios and not understand that they are hurting the person that they are trying to have a romantic or sexual relationship with. That hurts girls, but it also hurts boys. It's not good for anyone.

From all the class and companion stories that I've been through now, the SI, BH, SW and IA, the Imperial Agent is definately, and by far, the best one.
"..the worst kind of DARTH one can dig up!"

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.06.2014 , 10:53 AM | #3197
Quote: Originally Posted by fabiyun View Post
I've played through 4 classes now, 2 male chars and 2 femals chars, and I can see why removing the "gender-check" cannot happen. Mostly this is because of Austin's sexism though.

Spoiler
Just a quick clarification here: the divide between Sith and non-Sith vastly outclasses any other distinction, be it gender or even species. There might be more men than women on the Dark Council, but female Sith have just as many privileges as male Sith, and Sith can, in a legal sense, do pretty much whatever they want with non-Sith. So the Quinn situation is, to me, totally believable. Of course, the harassment issue would still be problematic (saying this having never played SW for any length).

Quote:
And this gendered approach doesn't make a better story, I felt like the female Warrior was treated childlike, as if she is some kind of innocent tween whom desperately needs a girlfriend to go to the bathrooms with because going alone is not really girl-like. Female equates girl, whereas male equates man. This difference is classic sexism. Either all characters should be approached as children/teens and there is a Sith Warrior boy and a Sith Warrior girl, or both are considered adults, and there is an SW man and an SW woman. Of course that doesn't happen. Manhood is Warriorlike, female warriors are threathening and non-sexy to the male gaze, so we have a female character in girlhood, innocence that is either to be corrupted for the male *****, or childlike sweetness that for some is fatherhood pride and others a *****.
Does it change so sharply? That'd be very odd, because while I've only ever finished Korriban as a Warrior, the female one seems pretty hardcore and not at all sweet or innocent (except in the rather awkward instance of not knowing the Sith Code, which applies to both genders).
If it helps, I have made it quite far through the Consular and Inquisitor storylines, and I haven't seen any signs of them doing that to female PCs of those classes.

Quote:
Okay, so I've come to agree with Austin that rewriting the companion stories is a very time consuming task. But.. I actually would like to see them changed, because the lack of SGRA isn't the only problem with them, many of these stories are extremely problematic from a woman's perspective, and they should be for men, but unfortunately we live in a rape culture, and these terrible power dynamics, lack of agency and consent are completely normalised. That doesn't mean that they are good though, they may be normalised, but they're still terrible. And that shouldn't just concern women, is there seriously any man whom is proud that all men are essentially rapists until proven otherwise? Are there seriously any men whom like to see rape scenarios over and over again in their games? I guess there are, but I do hope a majority will come to see there are better stories to be told.
Do you see this systematically outside the SW storyline?

For the rest of your post, I agree with you, with the caveat that the patriarchy isn't a conspiracy, but a set of cultural trends that, for the most part, guides people unconsciously. Certainly worthy of change, but it's not the doing of evil overlords.

Nydus's Avatar


Nydus
02.06.2014 , 11:16 AM | #3198
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
For the rest of your post, I agree with you, with the caveat that the patriarchy isn't a conspiracy, but a set of cultural trends that, for the most part, guides people unconsciously. Certainly worthy of change, but it's not the doing of evil overlords.
You obviously don't know about the secret conference call between all men of the world scheduled tonight. This is to be followed by local meetings of all white males, then all white English-speaking males, and then all Protestant, white English-speaking males.

The objective is to develop a Secret Charter of Patriarchy.

- Arcada
The Arcada Legacy (Ebon Hawk)
Ord'os (Lvl.55 Sorcerer), Naresa (Lvl.53 Operative), Jagrafess (Lvl.19 Marauder)
Nydus (Lvl.54 Shadow), Toclafane (Lvl.27 Guardian)

vadess's Avatar


vadess
02.07.2014 , 02:35 PM | #3199
I thought I'd post this link here. I've been working slowly on a fanfic about the Lord Cytharat romance that involves my sniper, who is gay in my own head canon. I took the Makeb story line and expanded upon it. I can post the first three chapters now, as I'm working on chapter 4. Hopefully chapter will be done soon.

Anyway, guys, I appreciate the feedback on it and I hope you enjoy a more expanded version of the glimpses of SGR in the game. Link: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...02#post7188002
Forum Posts Pro-SGR in SWTOR
Companion SGR: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=634157
Same Gender Romance Discussion: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=590526

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
02.08.2014 , 07:47 AM | #3200
Quote: Originally Posted by Nydus View Post
You obviously don't know about the secret conference call between all men of the world scheduled tonight. This is to be followed by local meetings of all white males, then all white English-speaking males, and then all Protestant, white English-speaking males.

The objective is to develop a Secret Charter of Patriarchy.

- Arcada
It's self-perpetuating by making itself seemingly invisible, then giving power to cishet white dudes who don't see it and having them yell "Well it wasn't a problem before/doesn't affect me".

As for Fabiyun's question about whether the men playing this game are ok with rape - there's a good chance (statistically speaking) that a reasonable portion of the male playerbase are rapists and/or rape apologists. Hell, some of them may even think this game needs more or overt rape. Because us nasty wimminz are coming in and playing "their" manly game.