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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
10.16.2013 , 03:10 PM | #2171
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
In contrast, I'm sure we'll all take your contributions to heart.

On that note, I should go. After all, with you freeing me of the burdens of my own interests by pointing out how unimportant they are because reasons, I'll have to go find other things to care about. Busy busy.
And, of course, the side-lining of LGBT representation due to developers not thinking it important (because LGBT persons couldn't possibly want to their relationships and identities reflected in the media they consume), is not indicative - at all - of an underlying issue with beliefs about the 'necessary' permeation heterosexual relationships above and beyond all else, as well as the idea that the only people who consume games follows a hierarchy of straight men->straight women/vicarious bisexuals->gay men->lesbians----------------------------------------------------->trans* people.

Because everyone knows only cishet (white) dudes play video games

copperjack's Avatar


copperjack
10.16.2013 , 06:24 PM | #2172
It would be a lot bigger of a deal if they were adding in more OGR while ignoring SGR. As it is, they screwed up at launch but there haven't been grand romances of either kind added. There were two mini SGRs and a few flirts for everyone, but it's not anything like what they're doing with dancer's costumes. They haven't side-lined only SGR, they've put all romance and the majority of story content on the back burner to work on other things. I'm mostly here for the story content, so I'm not exactly happy about that, but it's not continued discrimination against LGB people.

Palar's Avatar


Palar
10.16.2013 , 11:13 PM | #2173
"You'll only get launch-level SGR when OGR gets something new and better."

I... don't think that's a waving banner of non-discrimination, myself.

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
10.17.2013 , 03:53 AM | #2174
Quote: Originally Posted by copperjack View Post
It would be a lot bigger of a deal if they were adding in more OGR while ignoring SGR. As it is, they screwed up at launch but there haven't been grand romances of either kind added. There were two mini SGRs and a few flirts for everyone, but it's not anything like what they're doing with dancer's costumes. They haven't side-lined only SGR, they've put all romance and the majority of story content on the back burner to work on other things. I'm mostly here for the story content, so I'm not exactly happy about that, but it's not continued discrimination against LGB people.
That's all well and good, but the game shipped with, oh gosh, let's see. Twenty two heterosexual romances, plus a few extra 'one night stand' and minimance style romances (such as, say, Jaxo for the Trooper). Everyone else got nothing, because the conscious decision was made that our interests were less important to the point of, y'know, not even slipping in one or two s/s romances for characters that are already heavily implied to be leaning that way already (say, Kaliyo) whilst adding an abundance of them for straight people, and straight males in particular.

'Oh, but we'll patch them in later', they told us. Nearly two years ago.

Now, I can appreciate that swtor's launch didn't go quite as they might've planned and it took a while for it to actually recover to the point of not haemorrhaging money from all sides. But when all we've really had for two years are a series of reminders of how other people are just so gosh darn more important than we are, I'm not sure exactly what else I'd call that.

copperjack's Avatar


copperjack
10.17.2013 , 06:57 AM | #2175
Bioware absolutely could have handled this much better, I'm not saying they're blameless. But a lot of people in this thread seem to assume the absolute worst and go a bit overboard on crying homophobia and malice which is really not accurate. We did get Makeb and some other flirts, and they were disappointing and not at all what was expected, but I don't think that's all the SGR they're going to put in and it's untrue to say that they've done nothing.

Highborne's Avatar


Highborne
10.17.2013 , 08:53 AM | #2176
Quote: Originally Posted by copperjack View Post
Bioware absolutely could have handled this much better, I'm not saying they're blameless. But a lot of people in this thread seem to assume the absolute worst and go a bit overboard on crying homophobia and malice which is really not accurate. We did get Makeb and some other flirts, and they were disappointing and not at all what was expected, but I don't think that's all the SGR they're going to put in and it's untrue to say that they've done nothing.
Ah, yes - the old "be happy with what you've got, and trust that the overlords will give us more!" argument. Dunno about you, but two freaking years is long enough to have been waiting patiently at the back of the bus. Time for me to cut my losses, stop spending good money after bad, and quit SWTOR. Oh, and refuse to buy anything produced by Bioware: Austin ever again, because their coding has varied from lazy to prejudiced throughout the whole debacle.

copperjack's Avatar


copperjack
10.17.2013 , 10:31 AM | #2177
Quote: Originally Posted by Highborne View Post
Ah, yes - the old "be happy with what you've got, and trust that the overlords will give us more!" argument. Dunno about you, but two freaking years is long enough to have been waiting patiently at the back of the bus. Time for me to cut my losses, stop spending good money after bad, and quit SWTOR. Oh, and refuse to buy anything produced by Bioware: Austin ever again, because their coding has varied from lazy to prejudiced throughout the whole debacle.
That's not exactly what I meant. I think it's reasonable to be fed up and unsub. The believing that there will be more/better SGR is mostly me being optimistic, I don't expect anyone to sit down and wait for it to come, or to just be happy with what has been done so far. What I don't think is reasonable is assuming the worst possible reason for anything and dropping accusations of deliberate prejudice and discrimination like Bioware: Austin is just sitting back cackling about what a great job they're doing oppressing people. It's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture of everything else that's going on with the game.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
10.17.2013 , 11:37 AM | #2178
Copperjack - "do not attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity", yes, we've discussed this before in the thread, but we've also covered the idea of this being an unconscious, self-actuating, homophobia, in as much as: Bioware decided their key audience is cishet men; Bioware make romances aimed at cishet men; Bioware later create romances for cishet women (as demonstrated by the nature of the romances (re: Corso) and the fact that the two "extra" romances for women characters are one-night-stands, not fully scripted); Bioware do not consider during development that non-cishet individuals might be playing; Bioware do not include homosexual romances. Now, this would occur because no one thought to question the heterosexual status quo OR the environment was such that said heterosexual status quo superceeded any queries to the contrary, and thus no homosexual romances were written, because they were deemed superfluous. We know that Bioware have previously said that SGRA content was cut due to budget and time constraints, but that these were cut entirely, rather than reduced those available to straight characters, demonstrates further at least the latter of the two posited theories: that the Bioware studios, during development, did not have an environment suitable for the discussion of actual implementation of non-heterosexual aimed content.

Palar's Avatar


Palar
10.17.2013 , 01:59 PM | #2179
Quote: Originally Posted by copperjack View Post
It's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture of everything else that's going on with the game.
Not really - this year has been Cartel Market, material created pre-layoffs stretched out via drip-feed, Cartel Market, daily areas with bulletin-boards, and now a PvP midi-game (looks too big for a mini-game) expansion. With Class story dead, and "no PvE GS content", what exactly are the writing department doing that SGR can't get a look-in? Excuse-plots for Ops? Ricky the Intern could do that during lunch. "There's an evil... dude, and he has a weapon pointed at... the planet that Ackbar came from? So you crash his headquarters and mess up his stuff! He can have a big war-droid minion!"

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
10.17.2013 , 02:14 PM | #2180
Well, it appears as those they've fired/made redundant, many of their writing team (Mr. Hood and Mr. Boyd appear to be the only left (yay, men!)), but still, creating the story for the Dread Masters seems to have been fairly straightforward (they're bad guys, they're messed up Sith who break away from the Empire, they do some ****, it's got a vague Lovecraftian/brown-Tzeentch aesthetic and then they die, because madness) and would, presumably, require not that much more time than much. Writing is hard, yeah, getting your ideas and **** together is very hard, but these guys are paid to do it and they're "professionals", and have deadlines. Their time should be managed so that creating Ops and Planetary storylines can be done in an appropriate amount of time so that they can framework, write, script and finalize other stories. The idea that they are not or that their priorities are the Operation storylines above all, implies then that class story content is no longer a priority. We know class story content is no longer a priority, because they've completely cut from the game (though, apparently, not support for it, which is interesting). Also, romance content (that is, with companions and ending in the promise of a continuing relationship) has thus far been intrinsically linked with class stories. So, while it may not moustache-twirling, cackling homophobia, cutting development of SGRA content as a result of cutting class story content, once again reinforces the idea that homosexual people, bisexual people and people who want to play LGB-aimed content, do not matter as players and that is undercurrent homophobia; it's not expressive, or overt, and in a way it's more damaging as 1) people don't realise they're doing and 2) it's very hard to make them aware that they're doing something exclusionary and problematic.