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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
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Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
06.28.2013 , 06:54 AM | #1561
Quote: Originally Posted by SwoopingLion View Post
My "realism" argument was meant from an in-universe perspective though. In place of any concrete statement either way by the creator, logic should be our friend. It just seems reasonable to assume that since there are humans in the galaxy far, far away there will be homosexual humans in SW. Add to that the fact that there have been approved homosexual relationships in the EU. Now obviously all it takes is for GL/Disney to say "Nope there's no gays lol" but clearly that has not happened.

I realise there isn't a debate going on any more, I was more expressing my shock that there had ever been a debate about this. It seems a forgone conclusion that there'd be "SGR".
I wish we lived in that world, SwoopingLion. The debate exists because some people are prejudiced against homosexuality for one reason or another (usually stems from religious belief, or just plain old discomfort with the idea of same gender sexual relations).

We do have supporting evidence for homosexuals in AGFFA, but the evidence is quite meagre... Three characters out of a cast of thousands. That could suggest that the numbers of homosexuals in AGFFA are considerably lower than on Earth 2013. That is not my personal point of view, however, I happen to think the numbers would be higher because there'd be less prejudice overall in the galaxy given the other intelligent species running around, so therefore less to no need to hide one's orientation from the world at large.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

SwoopingLion's Avatar


SwoopingLion
06.28.2013 , 10:56 AM | #1562
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
I wish we lived in that world, SwoopingLion. The debate exists because some people are prejudiced against homosexuality for one reason or another (usually stems from religious belief, or just plain old discomfort with the idea of same gender sexual relations).
Oh I realise this, it's just I would have thought they'd accept that it was going to happen (since most of the developed world doesn't share their archaic prejudice). I'd understand a sort of "waah, I don't like this" QQ debate, but it seemed it was much more of a "will it/won't it happen" debate. From where I saw it it just seemed to me the "I don't want it" camp was given too much weight without any real hard backing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
We do have supporting evidence for homosexuals in AGFFA, but the evidence is quite meagre... Three characters out of a cast of thousands. That could suggest that the numbers of homosexuals in AGFFA are considerably lower than on Earth 2013. That is not my personal point of view, however, I happen to think the numbers would be higher because there'd be less prejudice overall in the galaxy given the other intelligent species running around, so therefore less to no need to hide one's orientation from the world at large.
That could be down to chance more than anything. To be fair, most people are straight (again, presumably in the EU too) so a majority cast of straight characters is to be expected. A sample of a few thousand on Earth would probably pick up a higher %age but in an entire galaxy full of humans a sample size of a few thousand is next to nothing. (Of course from an out-of-universe perspective it's probably just that the authors didn't think to/want to include homosexual relationships...)
An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
06.28.2013 , 11:58 AM | #1563
Quote: Originally Posted by SwoopingLion View Post
Oh I realise this, it's just I would have thought they'd accept that it was going to happen (since most of the developed world doesn't share their archaic prejudice). I'd understand a sort of "waah, I don't like this" QQ debate, but it seemed it was much more of a "will it/won't it happen" debate. From where I saw it it just seemed to me the "I don't want it" camp was given too much weight without any real hard backing.
Will have to disagree there. If most of the developed world accepted it, it wouldn't be an issue and wouldn't be debated as it is.

Quote:
That could be down to chance more than anything. To be fair, most people are straight (again, presumably in the EU too) so a majority cast of straight characters is to be expected. A sample of a few thousand on Earth would probably pick up a higher %age but in an entire galaxy full of humans a sample size of a few thousand is next to nothing. (Of course from an out-of-universe perspective it's probably just that the authors didn't think to/want to include homosexual relationships...)
Which for this game they could easily say, the player characters make up that percentage. I doubt they'd say that as I imagine a lot of backlash would come from it, but they could.

Take Star Trek, where the whole thing is "Human populace has advanced" and I don't recall one SGR in any of the books I read, and the closest I saw to a SGR was an episode where the Trill Crusher was dating, became a female at the end, and Crusher was "Sorry. No." for no other reason as female now and at that time (if I recall this was the episode to introduce Trills) once the symbiote was implanted they became the person they were before, just in a new body.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

SwoopingLion's Avatar


SwoopingLion
06.28.2013 , 02:36 PM | #1564
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Will have to disagree there. If most of the developed world accepted it, it wouldn't be an issue and wouldn't be debated as it is.
Unfortunately several outdated and conservative institutions have a problem with it. They happen to have placed themselves in positions of influence over the years and a chunk of their followers have a problem with it. It's a vocal and influential minority that have an issue. The majority either support equality or simply don't care either way.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Which for this game they could easily say, the player characters make up that percentage. I doubt they'd say that as I imagine a lot of backlash would come from it, but they could.
Except that it's an RPG where you create your own character. The devs could say "you can create all these characters inside the EU, except of course your player character is straight. Obviously."? There's an awful lot of things they literally could say but hardly any of them are logical or sensible.

There's no logical reason to exclude SGR in this setting and this game. Harping back to LotRO where (all) romance is omitted, there was a cry for SGR there. In this case there was a strong argument against it due to the well developed, restrictive lore and also Tolkien's devout Catholic beliefs. Better in that case to leave it alone, like the devs did. In TOR there is no such argument, the lore includes it, BW have no problems with it.
An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
06.28.2013 , 03:58 PM | #1565
Quote: Originally Posted by SwoopingLion View Post
Unfortunately several outdated and conservative institutions have a problem with it. They happen to have placed themselves in positions of influence over the years and a chunk of their followers have a problem with it. It's a vocal and influential minority that have an issue. The majority either support equality or simply don't care either way.

Except that it's an RPG where you create your own character. The devs could say "you can create all these characters inside the EU, except of course your player character is straight. Obviously."? There's an awful lot of things they literally could say but hardly any of them are logical or sensible.

There's no logical reason to exclude SGR in this setting and this game. Harping back to LotRO where (all) romance is omitted, there was a cry for SGR there. In this case there was a strong argument against it due to the well developed, restrictive lore and also Tolkien's devout Catholic beliefs. Better in that case to leave it alone, like the devs did. In TOR there is no such argument, the lore includes it, BW have no problems with it.
I'm hoping for it as an option. Sadly, I think Makeb is the closest we'll get to it.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
06.29.2013 , 03:03 AM | #1566
Quote: Originally Posted by SwoopingLion View Post
Oh I realise this, it's just I would have thought they'd accept that it was going to happen (since most of the developed world doesn't share their archaic prejudice). I'd understand a sort of "waah, I don't like this" QQ debate, but it seemed it was much more of a "will it/won't it happen" debate. From where I saw it it just seemed to me the "I don't want it" camp was given too much weight without any real hard backing.
For a start, the forums tend to attract a minority of players. Only the most vocal, you could say. Probably the vast majority of players don't really care either way. This is why you'll see it debated here - the nay side lost in this case, since we have got (mini) SGRs in the game now.

Quote:
That could be down to chance more than anything. To be fair, most people are straight (again, presumably in the EU too) so a majority cast of straight characters is to be expected. A sample of a few thousand on Earth would probably pick up a higher %age but in an entire galaxy full of humans a sample size of a few thousand is next to nothing. (Of course from an out-of-universe perspective it's probably just that the authors didn't think to/want to include homosexual relationships...)
Remembering that we're talking about a universe with more than just humans in it, and of those non-human sentient species that have two genders they might all have differing percentages of homosexuals and bisexuals within them (some societies might have none, some societies might be all bisexual, some societies might have separated reproduction from sex completely and all be homoromantic and asexual). That's before we start looking at non-bigendered species like the Hutts (who are all hermaphrodites) - there could be species out there with three or more genders, and probably some with just one or no gender at all.

We simply don't have enough data to draw any conclusions at all... it is likely that there is far more variety in sexual/romantic behaviour among the collected people of AGFFA, than a simple x% of people are homosexual.

Yes, I have a wildly active imagination - and it disheartens me that there are so many people out there unable to think beyond Earth 2013 normal (that's not addressed at you, SwoopingLion.)

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I'm hoping for it as an option. Sadly, I think Makeb is the closest we'll get to it.
Speaking of Makeb, has anyone noticed that Lemda Avesta looks remarkably like Kira Carsen, except without the scar and with a slightly different hair cut?
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
06.29.2013 , 02:53 PM | #1567
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post

Take Star Trek, where the whole thing is "Human populace has advanced" and I don't recall one SGR in any of the books I read, and the closest I saw to a SGR was an episode where the Trill Crusher was dating, became a female at the end, and Crusher was "Sorry. No." for no other reason as female now and at that time (if I recall this was the episode to introduce Trills) once the symbiote was implanted they became the person they were before, just in a new body.
Star Trek is rarely direct with their message.
There was an episode where they dealt with gender identity that was kind of interesting. There was an alien race that had eliminated gender from the society entirely. Riker ended up falling in love with one, and she revealed to him that she felt very strongly that she was female. Sadly, when she made this public knowledge by giving a moving speech about how she really believed in who she was born to be and that it was wrong to hide it, they surgically removed all traces of sex/gender from her and brainwashed her back into being happily gender neutral.

I thought that whole idea could easily have been a reverse statement about transgender and homosexuality in our culture now.
Wardens of Fate / Alea Iacta Est
The Tarkus Legacy ~ The Harbinger/Jedi Covenant

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
06.29.2013 , 04:16 PM | #1568
Quote: Originally Posted by chuixupu View Post
Star Trek is rarely direct with their message.
There was an episode where they dealt with gender identity that was kind of interesting. There was an alien race that had eliminated gender from the society entirely. Riker ended up falling in love with one, and she revealed to him that she felt very strongly that she was female. Sadly, when she made this public knowledge by giving a moving speech about how she really believed in who she was born to be and that it was wrong to hide it, they surgically removed all traces of sex/gender from her and brainwashed her back into being happily gender neutral.

I thought that whole idea could easily have been a reverse statement about transgender and homosexuality in our culture now.
I know that episode, I don't recall a surgery aspect, but rather just a mind erasure deal.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

thegrognard's Avatar


thegrognard
06.30.2013 , 01:26 AM | #1569
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I know that episode, I don't recall a surgery aspect, but rather just a mind erasure deal.
odly enough I only recall the surgury bit, but not really anything else apart from the change in gender.

Surely if a symbiod like that exsisted, people would seek it out.

enragedcow's Avatar


enragedcow
07.01.2013 , 02:37 AM | #1570
I want same gender romances to be available.

My character is a male Twi'lek, they're known to be an absolutley gorgeous species but when I am playing I don't feel as though he really gets attached to the females as much as he has to Corso Riggs. My smuggler is very effeminate looking and even though he does his best to pretend to be promiscuous and charming with females it doesn't feel right.

From a rp standpoint same gender romance would be awesome.

And honestly, to any parent who thinks their kid shouldn't be exposed to it they need to pull their droids out of their maintenance shaft.