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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
06.27.2013 , 07:24 AM | #1551
Quote: Originally Posted by thegrognard View Post
Yeah I made the same decision on a few of my characters since I havn't even met the other characters that my character was going to run into. Plus the female Sith Inquisitor romance is lightside any my sith inquisitor is darkside so it'd be too late to try and turn lightside now lol.
I just finished the main Smuggler story today (with my female Chiss Scoundrel Zavi), and have been conversing with Risha whenever I can. Mostly because I was interested to see where her story was going, and partially because if I ever decide to write fanfiction I needed to have a better idea of what she was like. I'm going to have to look up her storyline with a male smuggler on YouTube just to see how the romance pans out - I suppose I could play through as a male smuggler, but I can't bring myself to do that, as a) I have a very difficult time relating to male characters and b) I just went through a marathon effort to get Zavi up to and doing Makeb. (She finished Corellia at level 53, and is still having problems with Makeb. I'm putting it down to gear, which is all mostly orange modded with blue ~level 50 mods. *sigh*)

I don't think there's anything stopping a LS Character romancing a DS Companion and vice versa. Though I suppose with the SW companion Jaesa, that might be more difficult.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

SwoopingLion's Avatar


SwoopingLion
06.27.2013 , 07:48 AM | #1552
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Because someone could just as easily say there isn't in a /FICTIONAL/ setting. FICTIONAL. Let me say it again, because obviously you don't get this aspect when you ask this question...FICTIONAL.
What are you even saying here..?

I obviously get that it's fictional. I also clearly see that in the Star Wars IP and EU there is absolutely nothing to suggest that homosexual relationships don't go on. In fact to the contrary we have some instances of them blatantly happening.

So, does that not clearly explain why I can't see how this needs a debate?

As to the discussion on when/how, I wasn't responding to that. Just the fact that there was a ever a debate in the first place.
An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
06.27.2013 , 08:09 AM | #1553
Just going to say this, I find it extremely sad that Interesting NPCs a mod for Skyrim that introduces deeper character conversation and personality, has a FAR superior romance line than SWTOR has, in every possible way.

Come on BiOWare what happened to being at the forefront of epic storytelling.
"The Empire is war made manifest. That is why it is perfect."
Imperial Order

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
06.27.2013 , 04:13 PM | #1554
Quote: Originally Posted by SwoopingLion View Post
What are you even saying here..?

I obviously get that it's fictional. I also clearly see that in the Star Wars IP and EU there is absolutely nothing to suggest that homosexual relationships don't go on. In fact to the contrary we have some instances of them blatantly happening.

So, does that not clearly explain why I can't see how this needs a debate?

As to the discussion on when/how, I wasn't responding to that. Just the fact that there was a ever a debate in the first place.
I think it's because you began your argument from the realism perspective. What (I think) SK is saying is that there's no reason that realism has to apply in a fictional setting, especially a science fiction/fantasy setting - if a writer decided to write a world that specifically excluded homosexuality (as in, it doesn't exist at all within the context that world), then they could. This applies vice versa too - worlds where one gender has died out (for example) so relationships are strictly homosexual, or worlds where the norm is to be bisexual and exclusive attraction to one gender or the another is viewed as odd, and so on and so forth.

But that doesn't apply to the SW universe, because there are sources to show that homosexuality does exist within the context of AGFFA.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
06.28.2013 , 12:47 AM | #1555
Quote: Originally Posted by SwoopingLion View Post
What are you even saying here..?

I obviously get that it's fictional. I also clearly see that in the Star Wars IP and EU there is absolutely nothing to suggest that homosexual relationships don't go on. In fact to the contrary we have some instances of them blatantly happening.

So, does that not clearly explain why I can't see how this needs a debate?

As to the discussion on when/how, I wasn't responding to that. Just the fact that there was a ever a debate in the first place.
Quote:
There are same gender romances on Earth, in real life. We're discussing an entire galaxy (with humans in it, as well as a ruling crime family of hermaphrodites...) so why would there not be same gender flings?
As said by you. The point wasn't a debate. The point was this comment is just plain wrong. And obviously you didn't read the rest of my post you saw that I said you were wrong (which you were), and thought it was a debate.

Just because a fictional universe has an entire galaxy with humans in it, doesn't mean there has to be same gender flings.

But yes, SW has 1 or 2 mentioned in all the many characters it's mentioned in it's long history.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
06.28.2013 , 12:49 AM | #1556
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
I think it's because you began your argument from the realism perspective. What (I think) SK is saying is that there's no reason that realism has to apply in a fictional setting, especially a science fiction/fantasy setting - if a writer decided to write a world that specifically excluded homosexuality (as in, it doesn't exist at all within the context that world), then they could. This applies vice versa too - worlds where one gender has died out (for example) so relationships are strictly homosexual, or worlds where the norm is to be bisexual and exclusive attraction to one gender or the another is viewed as odd, and so on and so forth.

But that doesn't apply to the SW universe, because there are sources to show that homosexuality does exist within the context of AGFFA.
Sliders (some may not know of or remember the show) did an episode like that. Few remaining men regulated to helping populate and being kept in basically concentration camps, and most of the women becoming lesbian, because meeting men wasn't an option.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

SidehVelsan's Avatar


SidehVelsan
06.28.2013 , 03:55 AM | #1557
SithKoriandr, (love the name by the way. Really hoping it's a Starfire reference).

You are right. If a creator decides not to include a minority (or majority) in their universe that is entirely their choice. The post I made before regarding the realism argument was a response to someone else's point that the lore of Star Wars does not allow for Homosexuality or Bisexuality. I was more trying to make the point that just because it has not happened (or rather has not been focused on, there are examples of SGR within SW), does not mean that SGR can't be added or further highlighted.

This argument, of course, bars the notion that George Lucas (or now Disney) says "No SGR in my galaxy" They own the rights to the lore, they can say that. However, I would personally classify an announcement like that as heavily biased if not outright discriminatory.

A blanket "There is no X Y or Z in my universe because I said so" when the exclusion of that group does not have relevance to the plot (Sliders, for example), is something I would consider discriminatory. However, authors can be discriminatory, if they want.

I do not think proponents of the addition of SGR companions are upset at their exclusion because they feel entitled to SGR options, (or if any of us do it is not the bulwark of our argument). Rather, they are upset because SGR was supposed to be included and has been continually dropped.
Sideh, Human, Maurader--- Aldrion, Human, Guardian
Eskiel, Cyborg, Powertech---Davaron, Zabrak, Vanguard
Soloniex, Pureblood, Assassin---Runassa, Miraluka, Sage
Denac, Chiss, Operative---Eganen, Cathar, Gunslinger

SwoopingLion's Avatar


SwoopingLion
06.28.2013 , 04:14 AM | #1558
My "realism" argument was meant from an in-universe perspective though. In place of any concrete statement either way by the creator, logic should be our friend. It just seems reasonable to assume that since there are humans in the galaxy far, far away there will be homosexual humans in SW. Add to that the fact that there have been approved homosexual relationships in the EU. Now obviously all it takes is for GL/Disney to say "Nope there's no gays lol" but clearly that has not happened.

I realise there isn't a debate going on any more, I was more expressing my shock that there had ever been a debate about this. It seems a forgone conclusion that there'd be "SGR".
An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
06.28.2013 , 06:30 AM | #1559
Quote: Originally Posted by SidehVelsan View Post
SithKoriandr, (love the name by the way. Really hoping it's a Starfire reference).
It is

Quote:
You are right. If a creator decides not to include a minority (or majority) in their universe that is entirely their choice. The post I made before regarding the realism argument was a response to someone else's point that the lore of Star Wars does not allow for Homosexuality or Bisexuality. I was more trying to make the point that just because it has not happened (or rather has not been focused on, there are examples of SGR within SW), does not mean that SGR can't be added or further highlighted.

This argument, of course, bars the notion that George Lucas (or now Disney) says "No SGR in my galaxy" They own the rights to the lore, they can say that. However, I would personally classify an announcement like that as heavily biased if not outright discriminatory.

A blanket "There is no X Y or Z in my universe because I said so" when the exclusion of that group does not have relevance to the plot (Sliders, for example), is something I would consider discriminatory. However, authors can be discriminatory, if they want.

I do not think proponents of the addition of SGR companions are upset at their exclusion because they feel entitled to SGR options, (or if any of us do it is not the bulwark of our argument). Rather, they are upset because SGR was supposed to be included and has been continually dropped.
It has been in the EU lore. Though there's nothing to say it was supposed to be included. In fact, it was never even in any beta build. However, when they said they'd add it later, people were expecting more than what we got in Makeb.

Quote: Originally Posted by SwoopingLion View Post
My "realism" argument was meant from an in-universe perspective though. In place of any concrete statement either way by the creator, logic should be our friend. It just seems reasonable to assume that since there are humans in the galaxy far, far away there will be homosexual humans in SW. Add to that the fact that there have been approved homosexual relationships in the EU. Now obviously all it takes is for GL/Disney to say "Nope there's no gays lol" but clearly that has not happened.

I realise there isn't a debate going on any more, I was more expressing my shock that there had ever been a debate about this. It seems a forgone conclusion that there'd be "SGR".
My only point was, in a fictional universe, not of our creation, RL shouldn't be a factor. If we said allow RL to rule what could be included or should be included, this would be a M rated game (this isn't saying SGR would make the game M rated...just that putting things into the game because RL has such things would).

Also, I never cared for the idea of trying to suggest that a creators idea should be forcibly decided for them by others just because they think it should be some way.

Though even if Disney decided "No Gays in SW" I doubt they'd say it due to obvious media backlash.

Also, I'd disagree that there being SGR in game would be a forgone conclusion. But I'm of the notion that just because other BW games have it, doesn't mean I expect it from all their games. I just think that's the silliest thing to do, expect something because other products have it.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

SwoopingLion's Avatar


SwoopingLion
06.28.2013 , 06:51 AM | #1560
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
My only point was, in a fictional universe, not of our creation, RL shouldn't be a factor. If we said allow RL to rule what could be included or should be included, this would be a M rated game (this isn't saying SGR would make the game M rated...just that putting things into the game because RL has such things would).

Also, I never cared for the idea of trying to suggest that a creators idea should be forcibly decided for them by others just because they think it should be some way.
No, I agree, it's just that with all the information we have about SW EU it seems weird to think SGR wouldn't be present.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Also, I'd disagree that there being SGR in game would be a forgone conclusion. But I'm of the notion that just because other BW games have it, doesn't mean I expect it from all their games. I just think that's the silliest thing to do, expect something because other products have it.
Not just because other BW games have. More because the lore/EU says nothing against SGR and more than that even contains it a few times. That combined with BW's previous titles made it seem forgone, at least to me.
An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.