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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.10.2013 , 02:53 PM | #1311
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
But if players feel TOR leans heavily towards straight males, even with close to 50% of gamers being female, maybe BW knows that's a majority of it's playerbase? Or maybe it's just unintentional and just looks that way to those who feel they're not being catered too?
Probably a combination of the two and Bioware's existing expectations. Most programmers and writers are male themselves, after all.

Jennica's Avatar


Jennica
05.11.2013 , 02:46 AM | #1312
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
The point I was saying, was different kind of games, so you're going to have numbers that may not correlate as well to the game in question (TOR).
Agree. But they also may indicate that there are plenty female gamers playing MMOs and TOR in particular. It's really hard to prove both points, to be honest.

Lent_San's Avatar


Lent_San
05.11.2013 , 02:57 AM | #1313
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
LotRO is a very friendly MMO environment for the most part - at least, of all the MMOs I've ever played LotRO was always the one with the nicest people (and not by a small amount; it wins hands-down). There's jerks everywhere but there always seems to be fewer of them in LotRO. So it might actually be LotRO giving her a faintly rose-hued tinge to her sight, not the boyfriend thing so much.
Certainly I've witnessed far nastier behaviour on WoW. I haven't on SWTOR but mainly because I shut off General as soon as I make a character (mostly due to experiences on WoW).
LotRO is a game I often go back to, for its lush settings and great community. It does have the nicest community out there, imo. WoW was bad but SWTOR has gotten equally bad after going F2P, at least in my experience, so no big difference there for me anymore.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
As for Mass Effect, I suspect it's because of traditional gender stereotypes associated with the military as to why most main characters for Mass Effect are created male. Even girl gamers might be creating male avatars there because many of them may feel that it "fits better with the story."
I am a female in RL and I played a male Shepard. I do enjoy playing male chars in Bioware games, am always playing males in DA as well. I guess it's a mix between enjoying the SGR elements and also being able to play a game with a male perspective, but one that's not necessarily dripping with testosterone, since BW characters are written nicely and the fighting element is not in the forefront.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
05.11.2013 , 07:29 AM | #1314
Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
LotRO is a game I often go back to, for its lush settings and great community. It does have the nicest community out there, imo. WoW was bad but SWTOR has gotten equally bad after going F2P, at least in my experience, so no big difference there for me anymore.
Interestingly, I was there when LotRO went F2P. It went downhill very quickly for about two weeks, and then it got better. It's like the trolls and jerks just got so sick of everyone being nice that they went away. Mind you one of the WoW expansions came out shortly thereafter, I forget which one. Now LotRO has the best and most effective F2P system I've ever seen.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
I am a female in RL and I played a male Shepard. I do enjoy playing male chars in Bioware games, am always playing males in DA as well. I guess it's a mix between enjoying the SGR elements and also being able to play a game with a male perspective, but one that's not necessarily dripping with testosterone, since BW characters are written nicely and the fighting element is not in the forefront.
I do the opposite for a variety of reasons, the first being I simply relate to and sympathise with female characters more (not sure why). In the case of Mass Effect a big part of why I played a female Shepard was because I don't like the male Shepard's voice. The female Shepard, by contrast, is much better cast. Unsurprisingly I like the female Trooper in SWTOR too. Oh, and female Hawke/female Agent.

Whenever I write fiction most of my characters are female; I usually balance it out but it'd be about a 3:2 ratio a lot of the time. When people RP with me online they usually think I'm female. In fact most games that don't allow a variable character tend to turn me off playing them.

I think I was going somewhere with this but I forget where it was.
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Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.11.2013 , 10:02 AM | #1315
Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
LotRO is a game I often go back to, for its lush settings and great community. It does have the nicest community out there, imo. WoW was bad but SWTOR has gotten equally bad after going F2P, at least in my experience, so no big difference there for me anymore.

I am a female in RL and I played a male Shepard. I do enjoy playing male chars in Bioware games, am always playing males in DA as well. I guess it's a mix between enjoying the SGR elements and also being able to play a game with a male perspective, but one that's not necessarily dripping with testosterone, since BW characters are written nicely and the fighting element is not in the forefront.
It's hard for me to tell if or how much F2P has changed the environment in swtor. I was here before F2P and I do remember the community being fairly positive and also lots of conversations about Star Wars lore in the general chat. I have noticed that the community has become somewhat not-so-nice. But on the other hand I think F2Pers get kind of an unfair stigma. After all, LotrO is now free to play, and while there might have been some jerks who appeared initially to try the game, it can't be that all of the nice people in LotrO pay money in some way or that LotrO attracts only nice people while WoW and swtor don't.

My suspicion here is that franchises like Star Wars might have a lot of mainstream appeal, and so when swtor became F2P it might have attracted some loud idiots in addition to the regular people who just wanted to try the game for free. (Edit: at least more relative to the number of loud idiots who might've joined LotrO when it went F2P)

I also wonder if having a side traditionally regarded as evil or in the very least self-interested (the Sith) plus all the darkside vs. lightside stuff actually brings out that dichotomy in the players. I've seen people Republic side behave deplorably, and when they're called out on it, they claim that "no one minds over on the Sith side." Probably a lame excuse as I imagine the Sith players are just as annoyed by harrassment and ninja looting and trolls as everyone else, but on the other hand, perhaps it hints at an underlying issue.

This is a game where if people so chose, they can act like a complete sociopath whether they're on the Republic side or the Sith side, and there are going to be certain people who will embrace that wholeheartedly and will only EVER want to play darkside. It's not so surprising that there might be spillover into their interactions with other players.

Perhaps it's time for Miraluka players to perform a scientific experiment. Watch the general chat and try to check the alignments of the trolls. It would be interesting to see the results.

Quote:
I guess it's a mix between enjoying the SGR elements and also being able to play a game with a male perspective, but one that's not necessarily dripping with testosterone, since BW characters are written nicely and the fighting element is not in the forefront.
Hmm. Yeah, I could see that.

Normally in RPGs I play female characters, but with the voice acting here, this is kind of the first game where I tried playing some male characters. Definitely an interesting experience - especially on occasions where questions about my real life gender comes up.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
05.11.2013 , 12:23 PM | #1316
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
After all, LotrO is now free to play, and while there might have been some jerks who appeared initially to try the game, it can't be that all of the nice people in LotrO pay money in some way or that LotrO attracts only nice people while WoW and swtor don't.
I think in LotRO's case a large portion of it is due to that franchise. Most of the people who actually play LotRO seem to be at least nominally LotR fans (not just the movies, but the books as well). Many aren't role-players and want little to do with that side of things but nonetheless they still tend to be fans. The same is true here for Star Wars, of course, but I think that this franchise tends to have a far broader fan-base than non-movie LotR; a wider fan-base means, naturally, more room for a wider, shall we say, diversity of personality types.

Though I'll add that the sheer weight of pleasant people on LotRO does sometimes actually encourage people to start being nice. Not all of them, mind you; I had someone tell me flat-out that 'defence' is never EVER spelled with a 'c' anywhere at all (despite it being spelled like that on the character sheet), and that he's English so he should know. I wonder if the people who made the UK government's Ministry of Defence site knew that enlightening information.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
My suspicion here is that franchises like Star Wars might have a lot of mainstream appeal, and so when swtor became F2P it might have attracted some loud idiots in addition to the regular people who just wanted to try the game for free.
That happens with every game when it goes F2P, definitely. The loud idiots tend to lose interest but, of course, with a franchise as culturally pervasive as Star Wars it's going to take longer for said attached idiots to get bored of it. And, of course, some might stop being idiots and remain on as more sensible players; good on them for that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
I also wonder if having a side traditionally regarded as evil or in the very least self-interested (the Sith) plus all the darkside vs. lightside stuff actually brings out that dichotomy in the players.
I think this is a huge part of it. LotRO has 'monster play' in which a player can take the role of a servant of the Dark Lord (an orc, a spider, a warg) but the main portion of the game is completely made up of the Free People. Hell, monster play is level-restricted. You can't even access it until you've been in the game for... I'm not sure what ti is now but it used to be a Level 40 requirement, I think. And sure, there are arrogant Elves, brutish Humans, hostile Dwarves and mean-spirited Hobbits in Middle-earth. Nothing stops a player from role-playing as one of them. But nonetheless the PCs are all on the same side and are fighting the (literally) Good fight against the forces of darkness.

SWTOR isn't like that. You can make a heartless torturing bringer of death who'd quite readily slaughter entire colonies just for a break from the monotony of following their superiors' orders. You can be as mean or as nice or as hostile or as friendly as you want. Which gives a lot more flexibility... but also gives more place to people that you might not normally get along with. Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it's bad. Maybe it's just a thing and part of playing SWTOR is recognising that sometimes you're going to meet people who act as if they're as bad-*** as their lightning-flinging Sith murderer. Learning to ignore or disregard them may just be a part of the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
Perhaps it's time for Miraluka players to perform a scientific experiment. Watch the general chat and try to check the alignments of the trolls. It would be interesting to see the results.
That'd be interesting. I have to admit most of my characters would show up as Light Side. But then I don't keep General on, much less troll it.
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
05.11.2013 , 04:35 PM | #1317
What's the player population difference between LotR and TOR? In my experience, the bigger the population, the more you'll see the general chat trolls come out.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
05.11.2013 , 05:39 PM | #1318
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
What's the player population difference between LotR and TOR? In my experience, the bigger the population, the more you'll see the general chat trolls come out.
Not sure but I'm willing to bet SWTOR is way bigger. And yeah, I share that experience. That's what I mean about the fan population difference in the franchises - the wider and deeper the population the more mathematical likelihood of getting certain personality types therein.
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Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
05.11.2013 , 05:48 PM | #1319
I'm uncertain how accurate these figures are but I found this site: http://mmodata.blogspot.com/

According to it LotRO is on a little over 250,000 active accounts (seen here) while SWTOR is around 1.5 million subs (seen here). No information on whether the subscriptions are active or not, and that's 2012 information.

So we're talking about six times the population on SWTOR. Way more room for certain personality types.
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Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
05.11.2013 , 05:55 PM | #1320
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
the wider and deeper the population the more mathematical likelihood of getting certain personality types therein.
So why base content representation on percentages rather than actual numbers?

If people who want SGRA and related content number 100k subs and subs are at 500k*, why ignore them? That's 100,000 people who are basically being told they don't matter and then members of that community are going to leave, because they've been told that they don't matter. So half of them leave, and you go down to 450k subs and then the story content doesn't get updated, because it's "hard" and you have vocal groups that want more resources to PvP and PvE content, so you lose more subs and go down to, say, 350k subs. And then you have people complaining that the game becomes just another WoW clone that funnels you from one raid to the next without any breath of life in it and a piecemeal story, because story isn't important.

Yes, a hyperbolic example, but one of the arguments I've seen against SGRA and companion updates is that story doesn't matter or that story content should take a backseat to PvE and PvP development. Story content takes a long time to develop and quality test, but it's what is setting this game apart at the moment.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Maybe it should be that Developers should let every aspect of their player base (the lore fiends, the roleplayers, the PvPers, the PvEers and casuals) know that they matter, so that everyone can feel like they matter and we can stop with gosh darn, pissing contest where people ***** and moan about this or that content being a resources hog and belaying their pet project, because their needs trump everyone else's idea of fun because it's theirs.

*made up numbers because reasons