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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
04.19.2013 , 10:25 AM | #1021
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Firstly, I don't understand this reasoning: "Because X character is exclusively gay, they won't do herosexual characters any more."

1) Any bisexual character will almost always be perceived to be herosexual regardless.
2) Being herosexual is more than just being lesbian, gay, or straight in reflection of the PC's gender. Species, alignment, and looks are all factors also. Every romancable companion is available to every PC of compatible gender regardless of species, alignment, or looks. If we need to distinguish on sexuality, we need to distinguish on the basis of those other factors too. So no matter if the companion is gay, lesbian, bisexual, or straight, if they ignore all other physical traits they're still herosexual. (I am not saying this is a good or a bad thing, I am not complaining about anything thing here. I am simply presenting my point of view, and why I think that there is a hole in the logic as presented above. Also note the other problem - in order to cater to everyone, the number of romancable characters would need to explode exponentially, and no company on Earth has the resources to make that happen in any length of time short of infinity, let alone the computing power it would require. )

Secondly, to address your quote. I hate to say this, but we've seen it already. We have a gay short-romance on Imperial side, and a bisexual female short-romance on Republic. I don't know about the non-Makeb flirts, but that's strike one. I am not expecting to see a romanceable lesbian character in SWTOR any time soon, if ever.
Or to make it really simple, the game itself can't tell if you're unattrative! And it's likely a lot more work for them to go about going "script this so this NPC won't go after any Pure Blood Sith with face tentacle, or are body type 4 males, or faces this through this"

You know, complicate things up, to the point that it creates a bug that has people whining it messed up some other part of the game, because someone accidently did this or that to the code.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
04.19.2013 , 02:42 PM | #1022
Quote:
Hello Ms. Green,

Though I know the SGR/A Discussion thread is not followed nor often read, but we are currently covering the fact that Lemda Avesta is bisexual and Lord Cytharat is gay. Now, this might not seem very interesting, however if you look at this within the context of the greater game, all female companions (SCORPIO being the one current exception, as she identifies female, but is a droid) are romance options for male characters, male characters get the greater majority of [Flirt]s options in the open and story worlds, it seems that the purpose of female characters is to be attractive to straight male gamers and to be perceived as - and actually - available to them in a romantic fashion.

Now, Mr. Musco did state, after the news of the faction restriction on the Makeb SGRs, that the romances will be created equally by faction and gender in the future. Notably, he did not mention sexuality, which implies that future female romances will either be straight or bisexual.

While we will never be told why the romances in Makeb were separated by faction or why Lemda must be bisexual, I feel it must at least be mentioned to you and the writers what impression this gives.

It is unfortunate that we cannot discuss anything with the writers - I know that Mr. Freed was involved in the project and left before it went live - as it would be interesting and, I would hope, helpful for both sides. However, I would ask that someone at least glance at the discussion occurring in the SGR/A thread currently. We know what we would like to see and how ti would be implemented, but because the thread is not read by anyone on the Bioware team, except for around the times Mr. Hickman decides to make an announcement, our ideas and concerns are going to go unheard.

The application of romances in Makeb are considered unfair - we've been getting anecdotal evidence, but apparently Lord Cytharat is the only option for gay male characters of either faction - and to continue that trend further would only harm this game and Bioware's reputation with the LGB* community, particularly if all female romance options are going to be straight or bisexual and if options for gay male characters are so drastically limited.

Look at this way: Mr. Musco said that [Flirt]s and romance options would be balanced across faction and gender, so say there are eight new romance options coming in an expansion and they're world romances - there would be four options for male characters and four options for female characters. Going by what has been done up until now, three of the four male options would be women and one would be male. For the sake of argument, the female options would be split 50/50, but the female-female romances would be with be bisexual females who are also available as male romance options. Now, this does not affect the individual story experience, but objectively, this says that gay male romances are rare and marginalized and that female NPCs should be made available to straight male characters/gamers, regardless.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
And that makes me wonder, a little, if the Lady of Makeb is bi because she is bi or if she's bi because otherwise the straight male character players would whine they couldn't romance her?
I know we have yet to see any more SGR/A content, but it is going to be a very long way off, if Mr. Hickman's statements that companion romances are incredibly hard to do. It is a given that any romance done with current female companions will make those women bisexual - they are already herosexual**, but discriminate only on gender, something else that has been discussed in the SGR/A thread - but there is the likelihood that companion SGRAs will be done with new companions (something else that people are taking as a given, if only for that the fact that none of them believe Bioware capable of putting in new romances with current companions), which makes me wonder if any future female romance options will be made with the idea of being for male romancers first and female romancers secondarily.

And this is not to mention other problems this game has with female characters and their romances or the issue of armour, but that's going off on a tangent.

Of course I do not expect anything to come of this message, but if the notion could at least be entertained, that would be appreciated.

Many thanks,
Tatile


*I'd question whether the trans* community would feel represented in this game, let alone those who are outside the general gender binary
**I do wonder why herosexuality is only a problem when discussing in terms of sexuality, but not species or personality
Got a little distracted, so I wrote this up. I tried to make it so that it's my opinion on matters that are happening and the use of "we" is when the discussions in this and other threads are being brought up, but I tried not to appear as though I am some sort of magical spokesperson for all of this. Any (constructive) input would be gratefully received.

Of course I did also already send this off :x

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
04.19.2013 , 03:18 PM | #1023
Looks good to me, Tatile.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
04.19.2013 , 03:30 PM | #1024
Thanks, Stuffy. I figured at least one part of the conversation (or attempt) should be made available to the community and besides, I'm not very good at this words malarkey, so help there would also be appreciated.

The trans* thing didn't come off as a cheap shot or too snide?

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
04.19.2013 , 04:21 PM | #1025
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Thanks, Stuffy. I figured at least one part of the conversation (or attempt) should be made available to the community and besides, I'm not very good at this words malarkey, so help there would also be appreciated.

The trans* thing didn't come off as a cheap shot or too snide?
Nah, and I think you are pretty good with words

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
04.19.2013 , 05:58 PM | #1026
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Got a little distracted, so I wrote this up. I tried to make it so that it's my opinion on matters that are happening and the use of "we" is when the discussions in this and other threads are being brought up, but I tried not to appear as though I am some sort of magical spokesperson for all of this. Any (constructive) input would be gratefully received.

Of course I did also already send this off :x
Quote:
Look at this way: Mr. Musco said that [Flirt]s and romance options would be balanced across faction and gender, so say there are eight new romance options coming in an expansion and they're world romances - there would be four options for male characters and four options for female characters. Going by what has been done up until now, three of the four male options would be women and one would be male. For the sake of argument, the female options would be split 50/50, but the female-female romances would be with be bisexual females who are also available as male romance options. Now, this does not affect the individual story experience, but objectively, this says that gay male romances are rare and marginalized and that female NPCs should be made available to straight male characters/gamers, regardless.
It is rare. But so is having red hair (which btw as a red head, seems rare in TOR). The feeling of being marginalized is a different, and will vary person to person.

You also forgot to mention, why is it one can kill off the gay male NPC, or made him a Sith to link him to the Darkside, to equate darkside to being gay, for the very first gay npc.

Though your letter makes me wonder, would the male players have gotten up in arms about a female npc they couldn't romance? Or is this just some peoples thinking that's why they made her bi (which suprised me, thought she was strictly F/F). Would be interresting to hear from male players and if they would have cared.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
04.19.2013 , 07:03 PM | #1027
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Or to make it really simple, the game itself can't tell if you're unattrative! And it's likely a lot more work for them to go about going "script this so this NPC won't go after any Pure Blood Sith with face tentacle, or are body type 4 males, or faces this through this"

You know, complicate things up, to the point that it creates a bug that has people whining it messed up some other part of the game, because someone accidently did this or that to the code.
Exactly my point. We are never going to be rid of herosexuality simply because what is required to make it happen is expensive from a resources point of view. (Because if you're taking some options away from some character types, you need to provide other opportunities just to be fair - and that's an awful lot of combinations of character species, alignment, looks, and gender to take account of!)

Having said that, maybe we can (or even should) have romances where gender is a factor taken into account, and some companions are gay, some straight, some bi, and some lesbian... and maybe even a couple are trans* as well. But that won't make the romances any less herosexual than they are already.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Though your letter makes me wonder, would the male players have gotten up in arms about a female npc they couldn't romance? Or is this just some peoples thinking that's why they made her bi (which suprised me, thought she was strictly F/F). Would be interresting to hear from male players and if they would have cared.
It's happened before. Some male poster got all up in arms because he thought the romances of DA2 didn't cater to the "straight white male gamer" well enough. So it wouldn't surprise me to see it again, though probably not for this game because it seems to be more of a fringe issue (despite how important it is to some of us here in this thread).
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
04.19.2013 , 08:20 PM | #1028
Okay, I'm not going to get into this argument other than to say that in the vast majority of cases 'herosexuality' relates, as a term, directly to the context of gender preferences. Making it about whether someone has large breasts or red hair or a certain skin tone is needlessly confusing the issue.
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Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
04.19.2013 , 08:34 PM | #1029
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
Okay, I'm not going to get into this argument other than to say that in the vast majority of cases 'herosexuality' relates, as a term, directly to the context of gender preferences. Making it about whether someone has large breasts or red hair or a certain skin tone is needlessly confusing the issue.
I don't think that it is, honestly, at least as far as alignment goes. I think that alignment is every bit as important a factor as gender, probably more so in some cases. As a LS agent, Jan'neria is not going to fall in bed/love with another woman she finds needlessly cruel and violent (i.e.: Dark Side aligned) - this SHOULD work vice versa. (If they make Kaliyo the sole same gender romance for IA females, Jan'neria is going to be lonely forever.)
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
04.19.2013 , 08:47 PM | #1030
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
I don't think that it is, honestly, at least as far as alignment goes. I think that alignment is every bit as important a factor as gender, probably more so in some cases. As a LS agent, Jan'neria is not going to fall in bed/love with another woman she finds needlessly cruel and violent (i.e.: Dark Side aligned) - this SHOULD work vice versa. (If they make Kaliyo the sole same gender romance for IA females, Jan'neria is going to be lonely forever.)
Light Side/Dark Side, sure. That I agree with, and they've already started playing with that. I'd love to see more of it. But I never said a thing about someone's personality or their Force leanings. I was talking about physical aspects, which is a portion of what was being discussed above. And I do believe that IS complicating things needlessly because those are elements that the game will never take into account, both because there are too many variables and because basic things like species and ethnicity are literally cosmetic options in SWTOR. With nothing separating the species but a single social emote, a few outfit options and a 3D model there's no realistic point to taking those aspects into account.

When I said that herosexuality and specific sexuality are two models diametrically opposed to each other (for the most part) I was referring specifically to (as I thought was obvious) gender preferences. In my opinion a DS/LS flag is separate to that because it will completely override a gender preference in any case. A sexuality flag and an alignment flag can work independently. In fact they should work independently because then the alignment flag can be used to affect conversation and interaction in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with romance.
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