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Clickers.


MariaD's Avatar


MariaD
01.25.2013 , 09:27 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by byteresistor View Post
Binders don't have to do it as often (which is all the time for a clicker)
Peripheral vision works for most clicking. Also, with 1.5 second CDs, even if you glance at the bar directly, you have the rest 1.4 seconds to look around. That's 93% of the time. Human eye is very quick.
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Sleprock's Avatar


Sleprock
01.25.2013 , 09:34 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by MariaD View Post
This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.
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The way i have it rigged now is every button bound is in the same spot on the quickbars across all characters, besides my original Main which is a healer, I've kept their interface because for one i only look now for cooldowns. But every new character gets the same cookie cut layout and binds.

asbalana's Avatar


asbalana
01.25.2013 , 09:34 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyVix View Post
Correction:

1. You talk about not looking at your quickbars... how do you keep track of the cooldown of your abilities without looking at your quickbars? Everyone looks at their quickbars, binders and clickers alike.
I think that this is not totally true and game dependent. By game dependent I mean the responsiveness and quality of the combat system. The combat in that other game is so good that I developed a "feel" for the flow of ccmbat. I knew when the GCD was complete and I could fire off my next ability without looking. Procs appeared on the screen and I did not have to look at my bars to see when one hit. For longer GCD abilities, I did have to keep track to some degree but if I could get into a rotation, the abilites came up when they were supposed to and again I could feel them and did not have to check the bar. SWTOR still has ability delay, lag, and misfires and it is not possible to fight without keeping close tabs of the bars. I find less "feel" to the combat and often have to divert my attention from the fight to the bars to see what is ready to go.

I had always been a clicker and did pretty well, but started to use key binds a few months back. After a quick adjustment period, to me, there was no comparison in the speed that I could fire off abilities and in effectiveness in combat. I, for one, will never go back to clicking.

DonkeyGobbler's Avatar


DonkeyGobbler
01.25.2013 , 09:40 AM | #104
There’s a lot of sense written in this thread… along with a lot of rubbish. I’ve developed myself a hybrid system, which works well for me, using a Razer Naga. I simply see no point in binding something which has a long cool down and only gets used once or twice a fight. I cannot comprehend trying to memorise 30+ binds across my 8 level 50s, even when similar abilities are bound to the same key.

A lot of people coming into this game will be new to MMOs. They want to play a game comfortably not have to learn a complete new way of gaming which, in the short/medium term, will hamper their experience. I'm not levelling this accusation at the OP but plenty of people are quick to deride clickers as "noobs" without any real justification.

To the binders saying that clickers lack awareness by staring at their quickbars; you really believe that? Everyone looks at their quickbar area (unless you can somehow magically memorise cool down times and have no concern about buffs, de-buffs etc.). Looking at a quickbar doesn’t mean they’re completely incapacitated. Do you have no peripheral vision? I assume you don’t walk into lamp posts if you’re not staring directly at them…

foxxecho's Avatar


foxxecho
01.25.2013 , 09:44 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by MariaD View Post
This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.
I too bind my interrupts, taunts, useables, etc the same on almost every character where ever applicable.

I think of it like every class/role has ability priorities so if I bind the highest/higher priorities in common places it becomes easier for me to manage across multiple characters.

Also keybinding can provide visual clues too. I guess the difference is a binder could just glance and hit a key but a clicker needs to glance and click.

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
01.25.2013 , 09:45 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Sleprock View Post
This makes no sense. I don't look at my keyboard. Move along.

edit: Read this, you may understand lol......-

byteresistor wrote this:

You can't turn with the mouse to your preferred direction while you're moving the cursor between abilities. If you clicked an ability and your next desired ability to use is to the left of it you are also forced to turn left if you apply your tactic, you can't go right and at the same time move the cursor to the left, so your free movement is limited to strafing. Binding does not have such a limit however insignificant you may think this limit is. No limits is still better than almost no limits.
And I can use my mouse without looking at my quickbars or the cursor. So no, I won't "move along" as it perfectly made sense.
Just as you exactly know over which key your finger is, I know of how much my cursor has moved on the screen with my wrist impulse. Even if it were to not be accurate, the cursor is moving somewhere in my line of sight, not in center of it, but it's sufficient for the brain to use this as an information just like people are able to notice a wild animal crossing the road when driving. If my sight goes to the quick bar, it will be for the reason as you : reading a CD. And you know that when you do so, you're able to "keep an eye" on what's happening on the middle of the screen (I assume you can, because I can).

By the way, the paragraph you quoted, has nothing to do with the fact that you assumed that you couldn't fight without looking constantly at the quickbar. Yes, keybinds can have its advantages about moving, but if it requires much more effort because you're absolutly not the kind of player which has affinity with things which require fingers coordination like piano playing, not sure that you will earn something in the end. Not everybody is this kind of people. So even if it has virtually no limitation, if it implies greater limitation from your own, it's not worth.

Lionflash's Avatar


Lionflash
01.25.2013 , 09:53 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by AsheraII View Post
Pro Tip: Hybridize the two systems. Cooldowns are long enough to easily reach the right side of your screen for the more uncommon abilities anyway. Those who only keybind limit themselves to maybe a third of all the abilities they have available, which isn't exactly useful for your performance either.
Wait what? I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if anyone has responded to this but...

I keybind and I use all of my abilities. Why would keybinding limit the amount of abilities I use?

Quote: Originally Posted by MariaD View Post
This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.
I play 8 characters of different roles (tank, healer, dps) and I save each of their layouts on my G13

Just because it's harder to keybind and that it requires more effort to get used to doesn't make it bad. In fact that's why it's more effiencient and makes you a faster player.

asbalana's Avatar


asbalana
01.25.2013 , 10:01 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by MariaD View Post
This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.
Sorry to post twice, but I have to disagree with this as well.

I also have six characters with dual specs. There definitely is a relearning curve, but it not that bad. If I have not played a characher for a while, it does take a little while to get back into it. For example, I have been playing a Sorc for the last month and when I took my trooper out it was at first unfamiliar. But I went to an easy area and killed things for an hour and everything came right back and the character played as if I had never sat him on fleet for a long time to craft. I also play a sniper regularly and have no trouble switching up with my Sorc. My Jugg is another example. A half hour of play and he is back in form. I have healing, tanking, and dps characters and have no trouble switching back and forth.

The keybinds for a character get pushed to the back of your mind if you have not used them for a while. But they are there and come back quickly.

MariaD's Avatar


MariaD
01.25.2013 , 10:08 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by asbalana View Post
Sorry to post twice, but I have to disagree with this as well.

I also have six characters with dual specs. There definitely is a relearning curve, but it not that bad. If I have not played a characher for a while, it does take a little while to get back into it. For example, I have been playing a Sorc for the last month and when I took my trooper out it was at first unfamiliar. But I went to an easy area and killed things for an hour and everything came right back
With clicking, it only takes me five minutes or so to get back to a character. I am sure it would take an hour or more with keybinding, at least for me. It may depend on whether your visual or motor memory is better. I have never played musical instruments, etc., so my motor memory isn't well-developed. I could exercise it for/by gaming, but it is what it is now. I am just using it as an example of differences between people.

This is not the point, though. Several comments were claiming you don't need different key layouts for different characters, and I disagreed. Here is one quote, for example:

Quote: Originally Posted by byteresistor View Post
That's not a limit, that's an excuse. Here's an actual pro tip: bind similar abilities to the same button across all classes. If your juggernaut has interrupt bound to mouse wheel down then why would you bind it to something else on your sniper? This frustration is not the result of keybinds but your failure to organize them sensibly.
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byteresistor's Avatar


byteresistor
01.25.2013 , 10:08 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
Very wrong assumption.

If a keybinder has the mental dispostions to use abilities without looking at anything else than the action just because he knows what he's doing with his fingers, so the clicker has it too because he has the ability to know what he's doing with his wrist.

If you assume that a clicker can't make use of the mouse without looking at the bottom of the screen, so you have to assume that a keybinder can't use the keyboard without looking at his keys and fingers which would be even worse because he won't ever have the action in the side of his vision. You're a keybinder, so you know that this last assumption is false and so yours was false too.
That comparision doesn't work at all. Finger and wrist muscle memory aren't the same thing. For one you have an actual physical feel of your keys as a binder and not just a mental one. With the wrist you have a more vague physical feel of what you're doing. This is why most clickers bind most of their abilitis in a way that requires the least amount of wrist movement.
Quote:
This is not the point, though. Several comments were claiming you don't need different key layouts for different characters, and I disagreed. Here is one quote, for example:
I made no such claim.